Timing belt replacement at dealer - Horrible miss/Low vacuum

[CanadianTalonTC]

Aight, not a good day.

Took my car in this morning to replace timing belt/balance shaft belt as I bought the car a while back and found the timing to be off one tooth. Didn't have time to deal with it myself as I'm moving soon.

Before it went in it pulled 12-13" of Hg at idle (makes sense, the timing was off a tooth). I put piston 1 to TDC and it was off 1 tooth on the cam gears.

So, I talk to the dealer as I'm paying, you know yada yada he mentions a miss and I say yea I know cause it SLIGHTLY loped when the timing was off. Well I grab my key and start the car. It's missing HORRIBLY. Pulling 8" of vacuum. So I am like wtf! Anyways I pop the hood and look at it to find that there is a bungy cord attached to my engine to my strut so I take that off and bring it in with me to the guy. He apologizes and we talked for a bit.

He gets his mechanic and I'm told the cams were not off but the crank was (cams were CLEARLY off 1 tooth when I checked) when I brought it in, and that since my valves were closing earlier now or some shit my vacuum would go down. I told him that that didn't make any sense and it should be around 17 or 18 at idle and it's at eight. They are completely redoing the timing tomorrow to check again but if it doesnt work what do I do? This can't have been my fault.

Could they have bent a valve? I heard something about a crank plate? I'm going to go down after hours (there permission) to check it out a bit. I'll check timing, oil pressure and see if I can datalog a bit with HPtuners (not sure if it will work yet). ANY help would be appreciated! Also no boost leaks as of a week ago.

Cliffnotes - Took car in for timing belt, back with 8" of vacuum and terrible miss with no CEL yet. Dealer still has it.

Joel

 

[g4ebguy90]

I would say it would take about 3-4 teeth before hitting a valve, as on some engines I have picked up, I usually turn the cams to make sure there are no bent valves, they can usually go almost a quarter way till they stop. 1-2 teeth I wouldn't worry. 3-4 I would be a bit worried. 5-6 Deff worried. 7-8 your engine is probaly dead.


He gets his mechanic and I'm told the cams were not off but the crank was (cams were CLEARLY off 1 tooth when I checked)

This can make sense, if the the cams are just fine, but the crank sprocket was not properly aligned during old timing belt install.

 

[DSM1G90]

All marks HAVE to align up for proper operation.

None of this "one tooth off" nonsense.

Why do you think that auto makers put marks on pulleys and reference marks on the solid surfaces so the two can match up..for good looks?

-DSM

 

[CanadianTalonTC]

All marks HAVE to align up for proper operation.

None of this "one tooth off" nonsense.

Why do you think that auto makers put marks on pulleys and reference marks on the solid surfaces so the two can match up..for good looks?

-DSM

At TDC my cams were one tooth off from lining up with the dowels up. I'm not saying the crank was lining up perfectly (Didn't have time to pull the covers or I would have just done the belt myself.) but you should be able to get the cams to line up every other turn properly according to vfaq.

As in, if I lined up the timing marks on the cams at TDC and pulled a string across it hit 3 and one was one tooth lower no matter what.

Joel

Quick update. Oil pressure is good, idles at 1100 now, when you rev it a bit it smooths out.

AFR at idle bounced from 12.5 to 13.5. I popped the timing cover but didn't have tools to rotate to TDC on me. Looking at the dowels on the cam gears it looked like they were not lined up though but don't go on that.

Lastly, for some reason now when my key is in and I open the door the lights/beep only comes on sometimes. Sometimes it even only beeped....?

Joel

 

[DSM1G90]

The two inner marks of the cams needs to line up dead perfect across from one another and across the top of the block while the outer marks will not line up exactly.

It aint that all hard getting the cams to line up perfectly when doing the belt. You use two 17mm wrenches, put them on the sprocket bolts, pull the two wrenches together to roll both cams together at the marks, lay the belt across the sprockets and use bulldog clips to hold the belt on the cams, WHICH the two marks should be facing each other in the first place...and the belt holds the two sprockets in place while you lace the belt around the rest of the sprockets.

The trick is the adjuster - it HAS to be in the right specs to keep all of these marks aligned correctly.

If the adjuster was done right, ALL marks - the two balance marks, crank pulley and cam marks will all be perfectly aligned with their respective marks ...and that is what you NEED to have for 100% effiency...and that is what a 4G63T motor NEEDS.

True one tooth off ain't gonna kill the motor, but you've lost tonnage of effiency since everything isn't totally correct.

try it again- sounds like the autoadjuster wasn't done right why you are off one tooth...and that could be bad down the road.

I'm not getting on your case (and if I come across like I was, I apologize) for I had to do my belt numerous times until I hit the marks dead on - it's not an easy task to do for a first timer like I was, even though I've done belts on practically every other OHC motor. It's just this one has more procedures than the others I've done.

Good luck-DSM

 

[CanadianTalonTC]

I really appreciate the advice, it's the dealer (Mitsubishi) that is doing the belt though. They tried giving it back to me pulling 8" of vacuum and missing like it didn't even have a piston in one cylinder.

Another thing i noticed when I popped the timing cover there was there appeared to be a metallic sort of dust all over the cam gears if that could be from anything. I don't remember it being there before.

They told me they are going to redo the timing tomorrow but I'm at a loss as to what to tell them. If it doesn't work is there anything else I can get them to check? I'm really just trying not to get screwed here. I gave them a car that did NOT miss like this at idle and got one back that barely idles at all and what worries me is that their "senior mechanic" told me that the vacuum is normal...

Joel

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Just because it is a dealer doesn't mean they know what they are doing. The timing belt install is all of 10 once you have the timing cover and pulleys out of the way. It's not rocket science at all. The BS about the vacuum being lower now is just that, BS. I would go watch them do the install. If the car performs worse in shop than it did when you brought it, they screwed up and should pay for it. Don't drive the car home. In fact, don't touch the car. Have them do what you want and you supervise so as they can't claim that they fixed it and you broke it.

 

[El Cuervo]

I would have done it myself. Though you say that you are moving soon. How much is or was soon? 1 day or 2 days? You could have had it done by now. Exactly what the above post says. Also have them test drive the car and you be in the passenger seat making sure everything is ok.

 

[DSM1G90]

Metal dust - 'fraid that he just 'effed' up the belt area of the motor!

What was the definition of horrible in my experience with a Mitsu dealer, on doing a 4G63 belt (this was before I dove into it myself and, through trial and error, hit the marks dead on), is that I asked a question to one of the mechanics on how the steps in removing the sprocket so I can do balance belt and he gave me all the info on removing the pulley on a 420A motor (using the three pronged puller thingey, et.al.) ... to do a balance belt!

I told him it was a 4G63 motor and he gave me a blank stare ....

"Whoops! I'm leaving this joint in a heartbeat!" I bailed out of there just too quick before I started laughing too loud.

What that was called is, "A total scary experience!"

-DSM

 

[CanadianTalonTC]

Just because it is a dealer doesn't mean they know what they are doing. The timing belt install is all of 10 once you have the timing cover and pulleys out of the way. It's not rocket science at all. The BS about the vacuum being lower now is just that, BS. I would go watch them do the install. If the car performs worse in shop than it did when you brought it, they screwed up and should pay for it. Don't drive the car home. In fact, don't touch the car. Have them do what you want and you supervise so as they can't claim that they fixed it and you broke it.

Thanks. I think I'll call them and tell them to hold off until tomorrow so I can actually watch what they do since I don't work. I completely agree that they should fix/pay for the problem. I just hope they don't try and bone me.

I would have done it myself. Though you say that you are moving soon. How much is or was soon? 1 day or 2 days? You could have had it done by now. Exactly what the above post says. Also have them test drive the car and you be in the passenger seat making sure everything is ok.

Soon was I brought it wed and am/was moving tomorrow to a different town and I work from 7-7. I really didn't have time. I'll get them to test drive it with me in it.

Metal dust - 'fraid that he just 'effed' up the belt area of the motor!

What was the definition of horrible in my experience with a Mitsu dealer, on doing a 4G63 belt (this was before I dove into it myself and, through trial and error, hit the marks dead on), is that I asked a question to one of the mechanics on how the steps in removing the sprocket so I can do balance belt and he gave me all the info on removing the pulley on a 420A motor (using the three pronged puller thingey, et.al.) ... to do a balance belt!

I told him it was a 4G63 motor and he gave me a blank stare ....

"Whoops! I'm leaving this joint in a heartbeat!" I bailed out of there just too quick before I started laughing too loud.

What that was called is, "A total scary experience!"

-DSM

Yea the metal dust has me worried. I shined a flashlight in there and could clearly see it sparkle and when I rubbed my finger across a gear it rubbed onto me.

That sounds like a brutal experience. I hope they didn't assume my engine was a 420a and somehow follow that procedure haha.

I'l update when I have more..

Joel

 

[phunny]

Write down EVERYTHING that's been said and keep great notes on what's happening. You will need them if you have to sue them

 

[mchustle]

I would have them do a compression test in front of you after they redo it, just to make sure they didn't f up any valves that would cause a horrible miss I'm sure.

 

[CanadianTalonTC]

Ok so they redid the timing, it was spot on as they said. Now for some reason my plug wires are arcing everywhere at idle! It runs a bit smoother but I'm down to like -7 Vac and can't figure out the arcing. I pulled the wires and cleaned them and there was a slight amount of oil I removed but it didn't help whatsoever. I only got compression off of Cyl 1 + 2 yesterday cause a plug wire broke as I removed it and I needed pliers which I didn't have on me. They were both 165ish. I'll get 3+4 today. The arcing sounds like its coming from the back of the head though?? And if the RPM is raised then it goes away.

They are blaming it on that and I'm getting worried, it's sitting on their lot and their is nothing that they are doing for me here. I know they wont let me poke through things outside their dealership forever trying to prove it was them.

Joel

 

[phunny]

Ok so they redid the timing, it was spot on as they said. Now for some reason my plug wires are arcing everywhere at idle! It runs a bit smoother but I'm down to like -7 Vac and can't figure out the arcing. I pulled the wires and cleaned them and there was a slight amount of oil I removed but it didn't help whatsoever. I only got compression off of Cyl 1 + 2 yesterday cause a plug wire broke as I removed it and I needed pliers which I didn't have on me. They were both 165ish. I'll get 3+4 today. The arcing sounds like its coming from the back of the head though?? And if the RPM is raised then it goes away.

They are blaming it on that and I'm getting worried, it's sitting on their lot and their is nothing that they are doing for me here. I know they wont let me poke through things outside their dealership forever trying to prove it was them.

Joel

Take a video of it starting and running when you pick it up and write down EVERYTHING!