Hondata heatshield gaskets released for DSM's

[Spunkster]

Originally posted by crankbender
on our cars the intake temps are measured at the MAF which is before the turbo so the stock sensors can not be used. My car being a 90 does not have obd2 but all turbo dsms (or any car with a maf/mas) should have a temp sensor and pressure sensor in the maf.


Pm me if you would like me to review this product for the community. I can do all the explanations and tests on a bench as it is only heat transfer that we are speaking of. I can easily set up a system at the heat transfer labratory here at texas ATM university.

I forgot about the MAF, but thought that there might actually be another sensor mounted in the manifold...oh well. I have spent countless hours underneath my friends DSM's (more time under them than in them ironically) He used to run the website www.eclipsegsx.com, but I will leave him out of this.

Please give me a call here at Hondata. You sound very reasonable and willing to educate the masses

My name is Matt.

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by crankbender
Pm me if you would like me to review this product for the community. I can do all the explanations and tests on a bench as it is only heat transfer that we are speaking of. I can easily set up a system at the heat transfer labratory here at texas ATM university.

He can also post up enough formulae and "± ß ² = + -" stuff that no one will argue with him, too.


Well, _nearly_ no one.....

 

[crankbender]

Very true. It is just always a good idea to have somebody independent review the product. If it is crap I have no reason to not say it is.

I talked to matt and found out some very interesting things about the product. First off it is not molded but rather rolled and CNC machined. This allows for some extremely tight tolerances. Additionally they can change the dimensions for better fitment along the road...once somebody has a die they arn't gonna change it!!!

I am going to get one of these and let yall know what I think of it. I will not be shy to say it is not a good product if it isn't but I will try and work with them to make it better if possible.

For those of you who don't believe that intake temps are important or that your manifold doesn't get hot touch the head of your engine after you drive it. Now imagine that this heat is transfered to the intake manifold and hence to your intake air.

With all the money and effort people go through to get a FMIC setup why would you skimp on 60 bucks? This 60 bucks can possibly gain your 2-4% power gain... which is 6-16 hp to most of us here. Not saying you have to use this company but cooling intake air is often one of the cheapest ways to gain power because of the low costs involved. heck a max of 10 bucks per hp.

 

[High PSI]

Very true. It is just always a good idea to have somebody independent review the product. If it is crap I have no reason to not say it is.

I talked to matt and found out some very interesting things about the product. First off it is not molded but rather rolled and CNC machined. This allows for some extremely tight tolerances. Additionally they can change the dimensions for better fitment along the road...once somebody has a die they arn't gonna change it!!!

I am going to get one of these and let yall know what I think of it. I will not be shy to say it is not a good product if it isn't but I will try and work with them to make it better if possible.

For those of you who don't believe that intake temps are important or that your manifold doesn't get hot touch the head of your engine after you drive it. Now imagine that this heat is transfered to the intake manifold and hence to your intake air.

With all the money and effort people go through to get a FMIC setup why would you skimp on 60 bucks? This 60 bucks can possibly gain your 2-4% power gain... which is 6-16 hp to most of us here. Not saying you have to use this company but cooling intake air is often one of the cheapest ways to gain power because of the low costs involved. heck a max of 10 bucks per hp.

Sorry to bring this post back from the dead, but I noticed you never posted a response. Did you check this thing out?

I'm looking for a new intake manifold gasket and have come along this one. The concept it a good idea, and I'm sure it works, just so long as it doesn't leak under boost (that's the only thing I'm worried about).

 

[Spunkster]

I spoke to Peter last week and he was going to try and repost the results of his testing. I know the gaskets work from our own testing, but its always nice to have some independant results posted for the masses.

 

[DSMu4ia]

A DSM shop does make phenolic spacers.

http://www.122performance.com/

Call/Email Andy, he just got a bunch in.

 

[Tort9320g]

I dont like this product for the simple fact that it's advertised as a "gasket", not a spacer. For it to seal properly, especially on a turbo car, it should have a gasket or at least RTV on both sides. Check a honda board for complaints about leaks after installation because they used it as the gasket. Not saying it doesn't work, and I've seen great results from Phenolic spacers on 5.0 Mustangs back in the day, but I think it's misrepresented somewhat.

 

[thegreatms]

There is one thing I question about this idea. I do believe that it cools down the intake manifold, people have been using phenolic spacers for years. Question is: Does a cooler intake mani really cool down your intake air enough to be worth the trouble and $$?

In a above post someone said that a hot intake acts as a "reverse intercooler". i.e. heating up the air. But that is an exaggeration, the surface area on the inside of an intake mani is way less than the inside of a intercooler, also the flow channels are orders of magnitude bigger. Both of these facts will weaken the heat transfer from the IM to the intake air. When I get to work next week I'll run some CFD calculations to see how much a basic intake heats up air.

I need some help with picking good boundary conditions for the FEA analysis:

Do you guys have any guesses on a average Intake mani temperature, with and without a spacer? (I guessing 180 degrees hot, 100 degrees cold)

Air temp at the throttle body?(???)

Air flow? I think I'll use like 300 cfm air flow, that seems pretty good for a averagely modded dsm.(any other suggestions?)



The spacer version will defiantly produce a cooler flow, but I have a feeling that it will only be like .1 degrees cooler. We will see…..

 

[awddsm95]

i have just received my spacer/gasket, and will be testing it over the next two weeks, i have come to understand that they have worked well in the honda community, and am sure that they will catch on very quickly once results are posted.

 

[telly699]

i have just received my spacer/gasket, and will be testing it over the next two weeks, i have come to understand that they have worked well in the honda community, and am sure that they will catch on very quickly once results are posted.

Cool, we are all waiting.

 

[Devicex]

I've got one waiting to go on as soon as my swap is done, we'll see what it does.

 

[95AWD_TSI_TALON]

All I know is I got the forrester on my car now AND ! Before I could not touch my manifold without melting my hand after a couple hard runs or even just a cruise. At the trak last week I made 2 back-to-back passes and poped my hood. The manifold was hot but not anywhere near melting. But that spacer is HUGE compared to hondata's.
matt

 

[Devicex]

Oh great you had to go and tell everyone that yours is bigger than mine...

 

[djsven]

Hi,

Are there any results available? I know there are a few companies like hondata and outlaw engineering, that have a spacer (heatshield or thermoblock,...)? Is there any comparison test made to show which one is better? If someone can post their personal experience with them, that would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Sven

 

[ryanman]

I have the Hondata Spacer/gasket on my 2.3 stroker in my 94 Talon for about 4 months now. I highly recommend it. I just recently moved to south TX but I lived up in Colorado and normally after a run down the track at bandimere speedway my intake manifold would be super hot and not even able to touch it with my hand. After I installed the spacer/gasket I could make 4 runs in a row and my intake manifold would be cool to the touch, literally. No more bags of ice or anything needed to cool it down. I also did a before and after on the dyno, no other changes or anything and I made 4 more hp at the wheels, 298 before, 302 after.

There's my review on it.




EDIT: Hey Mr Hondata dood, do I get a free one now? I bought mine from Chris Dye - owner of club RSX - buddy of mine. I could use one for one of my other DSM's, hint hint.

 

[DSMTurboEclipse]

I've very interested to see what crankbender has to say.

 

[Mike1992]

So when installing this would a gasket be needed on both sides? RTV? I'd be interested

 

[silverbulletAWD]

There is one thing I question about this idea. I do believe that it cools down the intake manifold, people have been using phenolic spacers for years. Question is: Does a cooler intake mani really cool down your intake air enough to be worth the trouble and $$?

In a above post someone said that a hot intake acts as a "reverse intercooler". i.e. heating up the air. But that is an exaggeration, the surface area on the inside of an intake mani is way less than the inside of a intercooler, also the flow channels are orders of magnitude bigger. Both of these facts will weaken the heat transfer from the IM to the intake air. When I get to work next week I'll run some CFD calculations to see how much a basic intake heats up air.

I need some help with picking good boundary conditions for the FEA analysis:

Do you guys have any guesses on a average Intake mani temperature, with and without a spacer? (I guessing 180 degrees hot, 100 degrees cold)

Air temp at the throttle body?(???)

Air flow? I think I'll use like 300 cfm air flow, that seems pretty good for a averagely modded dsm.(any other suggestions?)



The spacer version will defiantly produce a cooler flow, but I have a feeling that it will only be like .1 degrees cooler. We will see…..

I'm with you on this one. There's no doubt that a phenolic spacer will make a manifold more comfortable to fondle. j/k. But, How much heat is actually transferring to the air in the millisecond it passes through the manifold. No one has really addressed that in any detail yet. An open runner is going to act very differently than an intercooler. Also, when racing at high rpms the air is only flowing through even faster making any gain from this mod less effective the higher the engine is wound.

Thegreatms- I think your numbers for manifold temp. sound OK. For what it's worth I usually figure around 80°F at the TB w/ a good intercooler.

I always agree that every little bit helps and for $60 and a chance at a reusable gasket I'll take it. So that's what I really would like to know. Who is running these, and how does it seal up? I'm liking this idea because as of now my ports don’t even come close to resembling the originals. And I'm still looking for a quicker reassembly solution. If these things can hold 30+psi and these guy's will sell me one w/o the port holes cut in I'll do it.

Andy

 

[gixrman]

But, How much heat is actually transferring to the air in the millisecond it passes through the manifold. No one has really addressed that in any detail yet. An open runner is going to act very differently than an intercooler. Also, when racing at high rpms the air is only flowing through even faster making any gain from this mod less effective the higher the engine is wound.Andy

I think your confused about what it does. It acts as an insulator against heat transfer from the head. Not so much as a "cooler" but as a heat barrier. I think

 

[ryanman]

So when installing this would a gasket be needed on both sides? RTV? I'd be interested

No you do not have to put RTV anywhere on the gasket when installing on a DSM, Honda people do only because coolant flows through the intake manifold.

 

[Tort9320g]

if coolant were to leak (18psi +/-), don't you think it's gonna leak with positive manifold pressure (15-30+ psi)?? It's an insulator, not a gasket. It's poor marketing to call it a gasket. Look at a phenolic spacer from just about any other company (like the ones they use on 5.0 Mustangs). They come with two gaskets.

 

[silverbulletAWD]

I think your confused about what it does. It acts as an insulator against heat transfer from the head. Not so much as a "cooler" but as a heat barrier. I think

Oh, I'm not confused about it. I'm just debating its value. I was talking about the intercooler in response to some ones "reverse intercooler" comment. You know what I mean? Find an intercooler, or a radiator for that matter, with out the external fins and tell me how well the thing cools. Not worth a darn because the air flowing across the tubes is now laminar and it's moving to fast to grab any heat transfer coming through. Now picture intake manifold runner and it's general "wide-openness" then consider its velocity and volume and tell me how many o2 molecules are actually picking up heat from the chamber. Mind you I'm only a beginner rocket scientist but I think I'm on the right track. Shoot even Hondata admits on its page that the difference in power is all but not there.

Ryanman- I have some questions. How does it seal up? Have you used it over without any problems? Have you ever pressure tested up to 30 psi w/ it?

Andy

 

[ryanman]

Ryanman- I have some questions. How does it seal up? Have you used it over without any problems? Have you ever pressure tested up to 30 psi w/ it?

Andy

It does have a little flex in it to seal all around, as long as your head and intake mani surfaces are flat, should be unless dropped (had mine machined anyways) then I don't see an issue with it not sealing. I've had my intake manifold off 3 times and not a single problem with the spacer/gasket. I did have a slight leak in one of my couplers not too long ago and I did pressure test it to 35psi and found my boost leak in the coupler and also just out of curiousity I also checked around the intake spacer and no leaks were found. I TQ'd it to factory specs and it seems just fine. Oh BTW you have to get a little longer bolt to use the spacer, obviously.

 

[silverbulletAWD]

Hmm, well that settles it then. I'm in. Thanks

 

[GSX_RCR]

But, How much heat is actually transferring to the air in the millisecond it passes through the manifold. No one has really addressed that in any detail yet. An open runner is going to act very differently than an intercooler. Also, when racing at high rpms the air is only flowing through even faster making any gain from this mod less effective the higher the engine is wound.

It's funny how a few of the guys calling BS on this product has either 1) never used this type of product before, or 2) don't know the basic laws of thermal dynamics.

The purpose of the spacer is to prevent heat transfer from the head to the IM.