Headgasket help!

[matt98eclipse]

Hey guys I just got my head back from the shop they replaced my valve seals, hot tanked, and mild it.

I have 3 questions.

1-What head gasket should i use?

2-What should i torque my arp's to?

3-Should i use copper spray on the head gasket?


I wanna run a little over 20 pounds.

I just bought a nice front mount intercooler kit along with some PTE 680 injectors and a afpr!

ANY help would be GREAT!

 

[dsm-onster]

Oem head gasket and stock head bolts are fine. You have a 6-bolt block: larger, reusable head bolts. As long as the head bolts havn't been out several times, I wouldn't blink at that boost level with that combo. I use a more affordable fel-pro composite gasket (identically made: just rebadged). It's done MUCH more with a MUCH bigger turbo with just arp headstuds.

I use copper spray. A good thick coat on each side does fine for me. I torque my arp nuts. in 4 stages to 120 ft-lbs with 30 weight motor oil as lube. First stage: 20 ft-lbs. Second stage: 70 ft-lbs. Third stage: 100 ft-lbs. Fourth stage 120 ft-lbs. This is 10 lbs more than in the arp directs. But I have no popped head gaskets and no stretched studs. Hand tighten the studs in the block.

Get some NGK 7s. You're ready for them and they idle fine.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Thanks matt, any body else have any opinions?

 

[SonySlave]

Since you aren't taking the block out and having that surface milled also, I would just stay with an OEM composite headgasket. It's $40 and works great. Just clean off the block surface of all the old gasket crap to make it as smooth as you can. I would also get some ARP headstuds as they cost the same or barely more than OEM headstuds. I have heard copper spray works well, but I didn't use it.

I burned a valve last summer and rebuilt the head, put in a new OEM headgasket, and ARPs. No copper spray. I used the ARP moly lube and torqued in steps 10, 20, 30, etc... up to 80. Then I started pushing coolant. So I torqued them all to 100 and haven't pushed a drop of coolant since at 23psi on my PTE 50-trim and 92 pump gas.



Here are a couple pics of what my block surfaced looked like after I was done. Not smooth enough for me, in my opinion, to use a Mitsubishi MLS headgasket, but good for a OEM composite:

 

[blcknspo0ln]

Thanks matt, any body else have any opinions?

I think Matt and SonySlave hit it right on the head. Goodluck

 

[matt98eclipse]

Cool thanks again guys looks like i will be going with the OEM composite headgasket with the arp's! But im still not sure if i should use the copper spray or not?

 

[dsm-onster]

I forgot to mention that retorquing after 5 or so heat cycles is ideal. It my explain SonySlave' sealing issue. Back off the head stud nuts 1/4 turn after 5 warm-ups. Then re-torque to 110-120 ft-lbs (engine oil gets in the threads at this point). You should seal just fine.

 

[matt98eclipse]

K cool thanks for all the info! I just ordered the OEM composite headgasket from the dealership. Should i spray the gasket with the copper spray or no to run around 20psi?

 

[dsm-onster]

Many do fine without. But it doesn't hurt, and how much does a can cost? BTW, copper spray works great on all other gaskets: intake manifold, throttlebody, j-pipe. A little can goes a long way.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

I heart copper spray.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

If you're going to get a new head gasket I would do Cosmetic or MLS. It may cost more but it is certain better than OEM and can more hold more boost. Who knows later you might consider a bigger turbo and more boost.

 

[TurboAnything]

Ya i would go with a mitsu MLS i get them here at the schaumburg dealer for $74.40 well worth it.

 

[matt98eclipse]

How many pounds of boost can the stock 6 bolt bottem end handle on a evo3 16g turbo?

 

[dsm-onster]

Considering the prep work and the fact that he has the larger 6 bolt head bolt holes, it's not worth it now, IMHO. Too many see over 400whp with arp head bolts and an oem headgasket that needs minimal prep work and is far cheaper. Pretty much all his evo3 16g can do.

A 6 bolt bottem end can handle what ever an evo3 16g can throw at it. The 6 bolt bottem end has been known to handle daily driven 500+ whp.

 

[daren_p]

How many pounds of boost can the stock 6 bolt bottem end handle on a evo3 16g turbo?

Like Matt said, on a proper tune, it'll hold all the evoIII can throw at it & then some. I know guys running the stock HG from the mid 20's to 30 psi range, with just ARP's & no issues (some 6 & some 7 bolt). I've run 26psi on my OEM headgasket with ARP's & this is on a 7 bolt.

 

[Steve93Talon]

<---- Look at the timeslip and dyno numbers under my name. Bone stock 6 bolt down to the head bolts/gasket - on pump.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Dam Steve thats crazy! Very nice.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Hey Daren With those boost ranges your saying are those with the 16g?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

He is saying the stock composite head gasket will take anything a EVO 3 16g can putout. My stock head gasket lasted until the head lifted with the stock head bolts from a 60-1 @ 28lbs. Never blew the gasket though.

 

[daren_p]

Hey Daren With those boost ranges your saying are those with the 16g?

Those are min evoIII 16g sized turbos, most of them are a good amount larger then that

 

[Kevin Jewer]

More HGs blow due to piss poor install than anything else. If you find that you have to overtorque the studs (5, maybe 10 lbs is ok) over the manufactures recomendation something is probably wrong with the install. I would even go so far as to say that when done properly there should be no need to retorque after heat cycling it. Some common installation mistakes to avoid, not including the super obvious ones like assembling warped parts, etc.

-Not chasing the threads in the block. The studs most likely need to go deeper than the head bolts did. Any rust on the previously unused threads can deform with cycling and cause the clamping pressure to loosen up. Same goes for deformed threads that change shape with cycling. You don't want anything moving after your done and changing the pressure on the HG.

-Not cleaning and drying the stud holes, studs, and nuts thoroughly. Same as above. Just one grain of dirt can mess things up. For one it can crumble under pressure and loosen up the clamping pressure. It can also change the thread friction giving you an incorrect stretch/tension for the amount of torque applied. Any liquid in the holes can hydrolock the stud preventing it from being inserted all the way, even though it feels tight.

-Not cleaning the block/head thoroughly. Self explainatory.

-Not breaking in the threads with new hardware. As far as I know, all stud manufactures recomend breaking in the threads on new hardware. The process is to simply torque and loosen ~5 times to break the threads in, which provides a more predictable stretch/tension:torque ratio. When you reuse the hardware you won't have to do this again.

-Making the step up in torque too small. If the last setting on the torque wrench isn't significantly higher than the previous step, friction at the threads and washer can prevent the nut from getting going again. You'll know it, since you'll get a click from the wrench with no movement. Same goes for jerky motions with the torque wrench. I can't believe how many people have no idea how to use one. An example of the right way to do this might be torquing the nuts to 20, 40, and 80 ft-lbs (big jump on the last step), using a steady smooth motion with the wrench, not a jerking motion. Make sure you have enough range of motion to get all the way to the click without stopping. If you have to stop and can't move the nut without it clicking you'll have to back it up a quarter turn and start over. Also make sure your torque wrench is trustworthy.

-Using a metal gasket on improperly prepped surfaces. A cometic type metal HG on stock surfaces is asking for trouble. Follow the manufactures recomendation for surface finish RA. This alone makes the stock composite type gasket the best choice for 95% of DSMers.

-Using beat to shit dowel pins, or leaving them out. The head bolt/studs are for clamping only, the dowel pins are for locating the parts. If the head moves around too much, the gasket doesn't stand a chance.

-Severely over-torquing the nuts. The manufacture recomends torque values that are meant to put the stud at some percentage of it's total tensile yield strength. If you torque it to 100% of it's yield strength there is no headroom for additional pressure from combustion/knock.

-Using oil instead of Moly lube is in my humble opinion less than ideal. Thread friction will vary using different brands of engine oil, though I don't know how much. With ARP moly lube though, for example, the thread fricition will more accurately duplicate the thread fricition present when ARP came up with the recomended torque values. You can get a tube from summit for 6 bucks that will be enough for a dozen+ uses.


The whole name of the game is to get the proper bolt stretch/tension. Since we can only go by torque applied to the nut (you can measure stretch in other places, like the rod bolts, but not the head), we have to make sure that we've done everything we can to get consistent stretch:torque values. If anything is amiss in this list above, the gasket will fail sooner than it should, sometimes as soon as you put boost to it. Since I learned all these lessons the hard way and started paying attention to these details, I haven't lost a single headgasket, aside from those destroyed by massive knock and other catastrophic failures. A stock composite HG with ARPs, properly installed and tuned, will go into the 10s at least.

 

[1fastlaser]

More HGs blow due to piss poor install than anything else. If you find that you have to overtorque the studs (5, maybe 10 lbs is ok) over the manufactures recomendation something is probably wrong with the install. I would even go so far as to say that when done properly there should be no need to retorque after heat cycling it. Some common installation mistakes to avoid, not including the super obvious ones like assembling warped parts, etc.

-Not chasing the threads in the block. The studs most likely need to go deeper than the head bolts did. Any rust on the previously unused threads can deform with cycling and cause the clamping pressure to loosen up. Same goes for deformed threads that change shape with cycling. You don't want anything moving after your done and changing the pressure on the HG.

-Not cleaning and drying the stud holes, studs, and nuts thoroughly. Same as above. Just one grain of dirt can mess things up. For one it can crumble under pressure and loosen up the clamping pressure. It can also change the thread friction giving you an incorrect stretch/tension for the amount of torque applied. Any liquid in the holes can hydrolock the stud preventing it from being inserted all the way, even though it feels tight.

-Not cleaning the block/head thoroughly. Self explainatory.

-Not breaking in the threads with new hardware. As far as I know, all stud manufactures recomend breaking in the threads on new hardware. The process is to simply torque and loosen ~5 times to break the threads in, which provides a more predictable stretch/tension:torque ratio. When you reuse the hardware you won't have to do this again.

-Making the step up in torque too small. If the last setting on the torque wrench isn't significantly higher than the previous step, friction at the threads and washer can prevent the nut from getting going again. You'll know it, since you'll get a click from the wrench with no movement. Same goes for jerky motions with the torque wrench. I can't believe how many people have no idea how to use one. An example of the right way to do this might be torquing the nuts to 20, 40, and 80 ft-lbs (big jump on the last step), using a steady smooth motion with the wrench, not a jerking motion. Make sure you have enough range of motion to get all the way to the click without stopping. If you have to stop and can't move the nut without it clicking you'll have to back it up a quarter turn and start over. Also make sure your torque wrench is trustworthy.

-Using a metal gasket on improperly prepped surfaces. A cometic type metal HG on stock surfaces is asking for trouble. Follow the manufactures recomendation for surface finish RA. This alone makes the stock composite type gasket the best choice for 95% of DSMers.

-Using beat to shit dowel pins, or leaving them out. The head bolt/studs are for clamping only, the dowel pins are for locating the parts. If the head moves around too much, the gasket doesn't stand a chance.

-Severely over-torquing the nuts. The manufacture recomends torque values that are meant to put the stud at some percentage of it's total tensile yield strength. If you torque it to 100% of it's yield strength there is no headroom for additional pressure from combustion/knock.

-Using oil instead of Moly lube is in my humble opinion less than ideal. Thread friction will vary using different brands of engine oil, though I don't know how much. With ARP moly lube though, for example, the thread fricition will more accurately duplicate the thread fricition present when ARP came up with the recomended torque values. You can get a tube from summit for 6 bucks that will be enough for a dozen+ uses.


The whole name of the game is to get the proper bolt stretch/tension. Since we can only go by torque applied to the nut (you can measure stretch in other places, like the rod bolts, but not the head), we have to make sure that we've done everything we can to get consistent stretch:torque values. If anything is amiss in this list above, the gasket will fail sooner than it should, sometimes as soon as you put boost to it. Since I learned all these lessons the hard way and started paying attention to these details, I haven't lost a single headgasket, aside from those destroyed by massive knock and other catastrophic failures. A stock composite HG with ARPs, properly installed and tuned, will go into the 10s at least.

amen to that. Stock composite felpro on a g4cs 2.4 25psi on pump gas, 30+ on race gas, no issues. Even accidentally had a vacuum line off the waste gate and spiked 30+ on pump gas by accident, ZERO ISSUES! tuning tuning tuning.

 

[1SloColt]

I use copper spray. A good thick coat on each side does fine for me. I torque my arp nuts. in 4 stages to 120 ft-lbs with 30 weight motor oil as lube. First stage: 20 ft-lbs. Second stage: 70 ft-lbs. Third stage: 100 ft-lbs. Fourth stage 120 ft-lbs. This is 10 lbs more than in the arp directs. But I have no popped head gaskets and no stretched studs.

The felrpo should act like stock as you pointed out, which means it won't blow nearly as easily as an MLS. The motor will either hold together are parts should start flying. The reason you don't have stretched ARPs is because you aren't making enough power. Stretching ARPs is a thing of the past if you are making a lot of power, also one reason why its said to retorque them, because they stretch with the first few heat cycles. There is a reason A1s don't need to be touched after a 90ft/lbs install, also a reason they can keep an MLS working at +1000whp.

 

[dsm-onster]

The felrpo should act like stock as you pointed out, which means it won't blow nearly as easily as an MLS. The motor will either hold together are parts should start flying. The reason you don't have stretched ARPs is because you aren't making enough power. Stretching ARPs is a thing of the past if you are making a lot of power, also one reason why its said to retorque them, because they stretch with the first few heat cycles. There is a reason A1s don't need to be touched after a 90ft/lbs install, also a reason they can keep an MLS working at +1000whp.

They stretched after their retorque. But they held to 52 lbs/min on my 60-1 and did not show any more length upon removal.

 

[1SloColt]

They stretched after their retorque. But they held to 52 lbs/min on my 60-1 and did not show any more length upon removal.

I should have stated that I wasn't particularly quoting you to single you out, sorry about that, but rather just expanding on what you were saying and adding a little more info for some members on here who have less experience than myself.

In that regard, ARPs have been successfully ran in cars making quite a bit of power, +450ft/lbs, although its been my experience that a majority of those guys with those cylinder pressures have difficulty keeping their HGs fully intact on a consistent basis. I'm sure most people are unaware that stock 1g headbolt tensil strength is rated at a minimum of 196,000psi, so it could be more because that is a minimum rating mitsu used, and ARPs are rated at that strength and no more, so that is why you see some guys making a lot of power on 1g bolts. But I concede that at around 450ft/lbs that tensil strength just isn't high enough, that the cylinder pressures are too great for solid HG sealing consistency. I've had personal experience of ARPs letting an MLS go with a .040" o-ring in place, now obviously the car is making some serious power, but every time I've run ARPs on motors I've built, including my own, they stretch, and elogation is inevitable as time goes on and new mods are put into place and cylinder pressures increase.