Head removal: removing cam gears to get timing belt off?

[soldave]

Was working yesterday on getting my engine beheaded, so to speak, and reached a bit of a wall on the timing belt side. Everything else I think is good to go but the timing belt is still on which has obviously got to come off. I'm not going to be changing the timing belt as it's only done about 3000 miles so far and was looking for the easiest way to get the head off without messing with the belt.

Someone said I could take a breaker bar and the strength of Thor to get the camshaft pulleys off with the timing belt still on it. As long as the cams didn't move and everything was put back aligned in the right place it would be fine, and would mean the head could come off relatively simply. Am I missing something here (very possible as I always shy away from timing belts) or is it a possible way of going about it?

 

[Afroclipse]

TDC the engine then get some zipties and strap the gears to the timing belt nice and tight, Oops don't forget to remove the valve cover. Now it says to get an adjustable wrench to hold camshafts as you break camgear bolt loose, problem with that is your balls aren't BIG enough to push forward as someone breaks nut loose with a breaker bar(no disrespect). So you position the wrench and put a big piece of wood under it and make sure the wood is jammed right so the wrench doesn't move when breaker bar does its thing. Get the tensioner tool(long as screw for timing job) and loosen the tension so you can have slack to move camgears out of the way.

 

[soldave]

Just a thought. Would this process still work if I'm going to require probable access to piston 3 as I think that's the one that's gone. Am gonna have to remove it and replace it I reckon but turning the engine will obviously turn the timing belt.

 

[Afroclipse]

Smack yourself for that question

 

[Jeff99GS]

You dont have to take the cam gears OFF to get the T-belt off. Just lossen the T-belt tensioner on the front of the engine. Then the belt will slid right off. DO NOT attempt to slid the belt on and off the cam gears without RE-TIMING the engine.

If you really want the Cam gears off I use and IMPACT GUN!

 

[gorf]

if you are going to be turning the crank just take the timing belt off and start from scratch, you will save yourself a lot of time over trying to work around it!

If you are just changing cams, replacing seals or even replacing valve stem seals you can get away with tie wrapping the belt to the cam gears and removing them. But if you are going to turn the crank - you WILL lose your timing!

 

[Strm Trpr]

You do not need to loosen the screw in the above pic...

I just did this very thing on my buddies 6-bolt.

This was done on a motor without Balance Shafts, and if your timing belt tension is set to within factory specs,
then you should be able to do this exact procedure.
If you have balance shafts in place and your T-Belt tension is within factory specs, you can still do this procedure,
just make sure your bull shit belt is correctly timed and make sure the rear bull shit shaft is in the correct phase.
Refer to the VFAQ for T-Belt procedure.

1.) Take the spark plugs out and crank motor to TDC by hand using a
----1/2" drive ratchet on the crank sprocket screw or the exhaust cam screw.
----Either will work easily since the spark plugs are out.

2.) Make sure all timing marks line up with their corresponding marks.
----Make sure camshaft dowel pins are up at 12 o'clock with everything else timed.

3.) I then made an alignment mark on the t-belt and cam gears using White Out.
----Exhaust Cam Gear had a mark on the belt and gear tooth at 12 o'clock and 9 o'clock.
----Intake Cam Gear had a mark on the belt and gear tooth at 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock.

4.) Then mark the oil pump gear and belt.

5.) Then mark the crank sprocket and belt.

6.) Then use the 8mm x 1.25mm threaded rod to compress the auto tensioner.
----Go easy on it, but bottom it out on the auto tensioner body, it will be fine.

7.) Now, everything is timed, marked and the tensioner is compressed.

8.) Get a 17mm wrench on the exhaust cam gear screw.
----Turn it clockwise a little bit because once the timing belt is loose enough,
----it'll snap back and bite you if you're not ready.
----Once the cam gear is turned clockwise a few degrees, simply slip the
----T-Belt off of the Tensioner Pulley.

9.) Now relax the Exhaust Cam Gear.
----Slip the belt off of the tensioner pulley, crack open a cold one and relax....

 

[Jeff99GS]

BUT why do all that work? Just to avoid doing the timing the right way??

That doesn't even sound much easier than the "RIGHT WAY".

Im not sure why so many people cut corners on these cars. Then when the car blows up in a year they yell "DSM is JUNK"...they all crankwalk and break everyday haha Oh well...I do Mine the NORMAL way, like the Manufacturer intended.

 

[Strm Trpr]

BUT why do all that work? Just to avoid doing the timing the right way??

That doesn't even sound much easier than the "RIGHT WAY".

Im not sure why so many people cut corners on these cars. Then when the car blows up in a year they yell "DSM is JUNK"...they all crankwalk and break everyday haha Oh well...I do Mine the NORMAL way, like the Manufacturer intended.

I know your last statement wasn't directed to me!
But then after I read it again, it was directed to me!
Now I've read it a third time, and you actually call me a "Corner Cutter"... WTF?

If you must know, I did my buddies 6-bolt that way because both of his camshaft seals were leaking.
His T-Belt is brand new, as are all of the timing components.
I checked the tension with a gauge block and feeler gauges, and it's right around .165".
If you refer to the VFAQ, you'll see that the tension is damn near right in the middle of the acceptable range.

And believe me when I tell you this.
In the past 5yrs, I've put just over 100,000 punishing miles on my 2 DSM's.
That's probably more miles than you've driven in your entire life.
Yeah, there were some failures, but I guarantee you this, absolutely none of the failures were because I didn't follow the factory service manual....

The OP simply asked a question and if it was possible to do what he needed to do.

May I suggest this, focus on helping others, instead of pointing fingers and calling others names...

 

[Strm Trpr]

Oh wait, you've been working on DSM's since 1999 ...
That's good, good for you.

Then you must have all the tools to do the T-Belt job the right way by now.

Well, maybe the OP doesn't.
Or, maybe he doesn't know how and doesn't want to pay someone to do the T-Belt again.
Or, maybe he doesn't want to do it again because it was a PITA.
I bet you remember your first T-Belt job, I know I do.

Either way, loosening that screw you pointed out, would've been a nightmare of a job for most dsm'rs.

I simply gave the OP another way to do it without needing special tools.
And a fool proof way of completing the job with zero consequence of error.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Just a thought. Would this process still work if I'm going to require probable access to piston 3 as I think that's the one that's gone. Am gonna have to remove it and replace it I reckon but turning the engine will obviously turn the timing belt.

Dave is it?
If you refer to my example above, you can remove the T-Belt from the engine and rotate the crank as long as the head is off.
Do not attempt to rotate the crank with the head still on the car without a timing belt, you may damage valves, and/or pistons.

It's really a fool proof way to do the job.
It will allow you to remove the head without zip tieing the T-Belt to the cams gears, it will allow you to remove the T-Belt from the engine and ultimately allow you to turn the crank by hand to work on Cylinder 3.

All you need is a threaded rod, M8 x 1.25mm pitch approximately 8" long, or since you're in Japan, 200mm long.
Double nut it so you can put a ratchet on the end of it and tighten the timing belt tensioner.
If you're talking about your Evo I, then I'm pretty sure it's much like the 1g 7-bolt motors.
Get a service manual, or at the very least, go on eBay and get the CD Manual.
You can also refer here.
Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

 

[Jeff99GS]

Hey man sorry...no one is callin you names. Its NOT bad to do it that way if you're just doing a cam seal. However Dave has to get to cylinder 3 and I think its going to be MORE trouble than its worth to do it with the belt on the crank. Sorry to offend you. Didn't mean YOU were cutting corners bro. Your situation was totally different.

 

[Calan]

I would just pull the belt...chances are you'll end up needing to anyway for some reason or another.

BTW - make sure TDC is on the compression stroke when lining everything up. (The marks on the cam gears must face each other).

 

[Strm Trpr]

I would just pull the belt...chances are you'll end up needing to anyway for some reason or another.

BTW - make sure TDC is on the compression stroke when lining everything up. (The marks on the cam gears must face each other).

Ummm, I've already gone over this a couple of different ways.
The belt needs to be pulled so he can turn the crank to work on cylinder #3.

When he puts the motor at TDC with the cam dowels pointing up at 12 o'clock and all of the other timing marks are lined up, cylinder #3 will be at BDC, or Bottom Dead Center.
You guys have a little to learn yet...

Hey man sorry...no one is callin you names. Its NOT bad to do it that way if you're just doing a cam seal. However Dave has to get to cylinder 3 and I think its going to be MORE trouble than its worth to do it with the belt on the crank. Sorry to offend you. Didn't mean YOU were cutting corners bro. Your situation was totally different.

Cool, just read what I posted and you should be able to see where I'm coming from.

 

[turbosax2]

OP, do you have the tools and knowledge to properly set the timing on the car? If you do, I would recommend removing the timing belt to remove the head, then reset the timing when you put it all back together. Just because you remove the timing belt doesn't mean you need to replace it.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Do you guys read?
If Dave follows post #7 to a "T", he should be fine and not need any Timing Belt tools other than an 8" long piece of M8x1.25mm All Thread.

If you guys read the thread, you would have read that he is not familiar with T-Belt jobs and would rather not deal with it.
I agree with all of you and he should remove the belt entirely to facilitate removing the head.

So with that said, it's safe to say he does not have the necessary knowledge or tools to properly set the timing the "Right Way".

So, I've given him a safe alternative in my step by step sequence of how to safely remove the timing belt using only a 8" long M8 x 1.25mm pitch piece of all thread to compress the auto tensioner.

The motor needs to be set to TDC (all timing marks aligned and cam dowels pointing up at 12 o'clock),
all white-out marks have been applied.
Dave only needs to compress the auto tensioner until the tensioner arm bottoms out on the body of the auto tensioner.
Then without loosening anything else, he can simply slide the T-Belt off of the T-Belt Tensioner Pulley, and remove the T-Belt from the car.......................

I just did this entire operation this past Saturday night.
Released tension, and let it sit for 20mins to allow the auto tensioner to extend to apply pressure on the T-Belt.
Rotated the motor by hand 6 complete revolutions and all of the timing marks lined up.
Put the plugs and wires back on and fired it up to a nice idling purrr....

 

[soldave]

Strm Trpr - Thanks for the words. Looks like I'm going to have to get the whole timing belt off though as the engine's going to have to be turned to give me access to piston 3. Am working through the VFAQ guide and make painfully slow but steady progress.

 

[Strm Trpr]

So, this must be your Evo I right?
Is it a 6-bolt being that it's a 92 model year?

With the motor set to TDC, cylinder #3 will be at the bottom of it's stroke, and at it's most accessible position to get at the connecting rod end caps.

Make sure and post your findings, I'm very eager to find out the problem.

 

[Turbocharged]

I've been off these forums for a while now; it's unfortunate to see so much arguing now.

Strm Trpr has a very nice method. Every time I've pulled a head on a 4g63 (or any other inline 4 for that matter), I zip tie the cam sprockets to the timing belt at TDC (I don't have a tensioner tool however). After removing the sprockets I zip tie the belt to the A/C line to put tension on the belt and provide clearance during head removal. You won't need to rotate the motor so you shouldn't lose your timing. Make sure to loosen the rod caps with the wrench perpendicular to the crankshaft so that it doesn't rotate. If it does rotate slightly, just rotate back to TDC (piston 1 and 4 at the top position).

Why do you suspect cylinder #3? What symptoms does the car have? Have you performed a compression check? Diagnose the problem before getting too deep.

 

[deviousgst]

So, this must be your Evo I right?
Is it a 6-bolt being that it's a 92 model year?

With the motor set to TDC, cylinder #3 will be at the bottom of it's stroke, and at it's most accessible position to get at the connecting rod end caps.

Make sure and post your findings, I'm very eager to find out the problem.

..
im going to hit you up next time i need help on my car haha

 

[Strm Trpr]

Feel free to hit me up.
I'm always down to help out a fellow DSM'r.

 

[soldave]

So, this must be your Evo I right?
Is it a 6-bolt being that it's a 92 model year?

With the motor set to TDC, cylinder #3 will be at the bottom of it's stroke, and at it's most accessible position to get at the connecting rod end caps.

Make sure and post your findings, I'm very eager to find out the problem.

Bingo on the Evo I, but all Evos were 7-bolt, even the ones made in '92. Don't ask me why! Have read through this thread and if I can find a long enough bolt I think I'll try your way. I know I'm jumping ahead of myself but once I get the head off how would I get at the connecting rod end caps? I know I'm missing something big but I'd have thought when the piston was at the top it would be easiest to get off. Probably a dumb question but really have no knowledge of internals.

I've been off these forums for a while now; it's unfortunate to see so much arguing now.

Strm Trpr has a very nice method. Every time I've pulled a head on a 4g63 (or any other inline 4 for that matter), I zip tie the cam sprockets to the timing belt at TDC (I don't have a tensioner tool however). After removing the sprockets I zip tie the belt to the A/C line to put tension on the belt and provide clearance during head removal. You won't need to rotate the motor so you shouldn't lose your timing. Make sure to loosen the rod caps with the wrench perpendicular to the crankshaft so that it doesn't rotate. If it does rotate slightly, just rotate back to TDC (piston 1 and 4 at the top position).

Why do you suspect cylinder #3? What symptoms does the car have? Have you performed a compression check? Diagnose the problem before getting too deep.

As for why I suspect cylinder 3, 0psi on a compression test is one thing! Have a read here for more info:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/pro...bay-covered-oil-now-low-vacuum-lean-idle.html

 

[Strm Trpr]

First get that M8x1.25mm piece of all thread.
You can buy some online here McMaster-Carr
Just double nut it and you'll be able to use a ratchet to screw it in to compress the tensioner.

Another friend of mine had my tensioner tool in his 6-bolt, and we had to do the following: Timing Belt VFAQ Addition 1
It worked perfectly, so be sure to check out your battery tie down hardware.
With the Timing Belt removed from the engine, you do not want to turn the crank at all.
The only way you can turn it is Counter Clock Wise, but do not turn it far, I'd say 90* max CCW.
This will put all of the pistons approximately half way up their stroke in the cylinders.

Well, I hate to break it to ya, but the only way you're going to get to the connecting rods is by removing the oil pan.
With the motor at TDC, cylinders #1 and #4 will be at the top of the stroke, and cylinders #2 and #3 will be at the bottom of their stroke.
Perfect for getting at #3's conrod end cap screws.

First remove the downpipe completely from the exhaust, it's a PITA to work around it, especially if you're doing bottom-end work.

If you have any front to back cross members that go under the oil pan remove them.

Next remove the Transfer Case.
Drain it first.
If it's new oil and you don't want to waste it, then PM me.
I can tell you how to remove it without spilling a drop of it.
When you refill it, use 1qt of Redline Heavy Weight Shock Proof Gear Oil.

When removing the T-Case, the Driveshaft has a male portion called a slip yoke that fits into the T-Case female portion.
Be careful, do not allow the Driveshaft slip yoke to hang down or hit the ground.
If the slip yoke surface gets damaged in any way it will cut the output shaft seal lip when you are reinstalling it and your T-Case will leak!
I used a ratcheting tie down spanning from frame rail to frame rail to support my driveshaft.
Much better than supporting it with blocks of wood IMO.

Finally, remove the oil pan and any other hardware that is in the way of seeing the crank and the connecting rod end caps.
There are a ton of screws that hold the oil pan on.
If your 7-bolt oil pan is like mine, then you'll have 2 shorter screws than the rest of them.
Pay attention to where those 2 go.
They are short for a reason and they only go into the aluminum front case.
Do not use a screw driver to remove your oil pan, you'll risk warping the oil pan sealing surface and it will leak forever after that.
You want to use a stiff putty knife and a small hammer.
Simply insert the putty knife, but just deep enough to cut through the RTV so about an inch or so.
You should need a hammer to get it started.
Then using the hammer slide the putty knife around the entire sealing surface of the oil pan to cut through the RTV.
Once you've cut enough RTV, the oil pan will pop off rather easily.
You'll hear it pop loose.
Notice there is no oil pan gasket.
Do not try and be clever and pick one up at Vato-Zone, it'll just cause more headaches.

You'll then be able to remove cylinder #3's end cap and you'll be able to push the piston/connecting rod assembly up and out of the block.
Use a clean wooden dowel, the largest you can fit in there from underneath without hitting the crank.

 

[SkylinesSuck]

Hey Dave!

Important to note for the people that didn't click the link, we are going to have to spin the motor to get number 3 piston/rod assembley out of the motor and get it bolted back up. That may affect the advise given. It's not just a matter of pulling the head and putting it right back on with out moving the bottom end..

Side note--Yes this is far from ideal, but we've already hashed out all the options for getting this motor back up and running for a bit until Dave either (a) leaves Okinawa in a few months or (b) puts in another stock motor, or one he's going to get built with better internals.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Hey man, you need to reword ^^^, because someone else might get confused.

OK, for that thousandth time, Cylinder #3 will be at it's most accessible point in it's stroke.

#1 and #4 will be flush with the deck of the block, and #2 and #3 will be at the bottom of their stroke, nearest the oil pan, it's most accessible point Evar!

The timing belt should be removed at this point, and turning the crank with the head off is no longer an issue!

Not to talk shit or anything, but if you guys can't visualize all of this, then you may not have any business working on the internals of any motor!

Sorry, I had to say it... but good luck and keep us posted.