got the FMIC on, have some ??'s

[MyBeatGSX]

First off, I'm very mad at Dejon Tool. The LIC piping on this kit doesn't even come remotely close to fitting. Even after going out and buying $30 worth of longer couplers the fitment is still horrible and I'm having a hard time keeping the couplers connected for any length of time. I took me longer to connect the J-pipe to the LIC pipe than the entire FMIC install did.

Now aside from that. How should the car feel? I've been afraid to make a 1st-3rd gear pull because I'm unsure of the car's state of tune now. I was expecting it to be noticably faster, at least as much of a difference as putting on an exhaust. All I know is that 1st gear is very soft and feels slower than 2nd gear did before. Is this just lag because of the larger air volume? The car just feels all around slow, runs bad, there's hits of misfires at WOT, its just all around crap. The only explaination I could see is a boost leak. However I did SEVEN (7), repeat SEVEN boost leak tests. Someback to back, some at different times, before driving and after driving etc. All of them where nearly perfect. This morning with a stone cold motor I pressurized to 20psi, there was a small leak at the AFPR (common with the aeromotives anyway), so I fixed that with some thread sealant. I retested after a few minutes. At 20psi WITH the MBC hooked up (and just my finger sort of blocking the bleed hole), it dropped 1psi every FIVE (5) seconds. I think that's good for a cold motor don't you?

Do I have a fuel problem? I don't see how just putting on a FMIC could make it run that much leaner. I also added 5% (and now 7% today) across the board on the SAFC, just to be safe. I doubt its tune related though, it runs like garbage at part throttle too.

I have no idea what to think, a boost leak would seem like the obvious answer but the car couldn't be any more leak free.

 

[larsrya8]

Did you reconnect all the hoses and whatnot? Maybe you missed one going into the intake pipe?

What are your fuel trims looking like?

 

[daren_p]

Ya I would double check to make sure you remembered to hook everything back up, its easy to forget something. My first answer was boost leak, but it looks like you have this covered. What is your logger saying? A FMIC should change your tune enough that the car will run like crap. Personally when I swaped my VP FMIC in from my HRC SMIC I could feel a nice increase in power, actually I was surprised is how much better the car felt & this is before I played with the tune at all.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Unfortunately I don't have a logger yet, that's coming next.

After taking the day off from work and spending all day struggling with the pipe, it stayed on so far (still haven't banged a hard 1-2 shift yet though).

I have no lines running to my intake tube, everything is capped off, and yes all the caps are on and zip-tied.

I was planning to go to the dyno tommorow, but they're off to Ohio for the Buschur shootout. I don't have a wideband or even an EGT. As I said in the original post I put the AFC 7% richer across the board. Does that sound like enough? Should I go 10-15% just to be safe? I'd rather smoke black than blow something up while I wait a WEEK before I can get to the dyno. If it makes a difference to anyone, my old tune was done on stock fuel pump wiring (running around 11.3). My idle fuel pressure is up 5psi now, so I'm sure its running rich at all points from that as well. And before someone makes a wiseass remark, I didn't want to turn the fuel pressure back down without a wideband to see how it effected things. Not to mention I can't get the pressure any lower, but that's a different post.

 

[HighPSIRacing]

Are you sure you're not running too rich? No, a FMIC will not make as much of a noticiable diff as an exhaust... It will make a diff on the dyno (when the car's properly tuned) and on a timeslip, but not very much on the butt-dyno. The fact that 1st feels slower is probably because of the fuel tuning and the larger air volume. FMIC's take A LOT of air to fill up and you WILL notice a bit more lag. I would definately reccomend getting a EGT (some people say get a wideband) and a logger and go to town tuning it. After hardwiring the FP you should definately see an increase in pressure and yes your fuel needs to be adjusted to compensate for that if you're not going to turn it down. (I've seen a few cars with a 190-255 hardwired that we had to COMPLETELY flip the maps over on) Aren't there any local dsm'ers with a logger that can help you out? Good luck with it!

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

Hmm...weird. I didn't notice much of a difference after my FMIC install (keep in mind I installed it back when I had the T25). The only major difference is in the lag/spool. The boost climed just as fast as it used to, the difference being the car didn't pull until it hit full boost, so the power came all of a sudden and pretty hard. With the SMIC, as the boost builds up the car would pull harder and harder as it spooled. The tune barely changed with the FMIC (0 to +3 at the most on the SAFC, I don't really remember).

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Last night I finally got the balls to just make a 2-3 pull. Its definately quick but very different. There's no big power hit, its just smooth and pulls to redline, its hard to even feel when it hits boost. It definately feels like its running pig rich, don't ask me what that feels like but I've felt it before when my 550's weren't compensated for yet. But that's ok, I prefer rich to blown up until I get it tuned. I'll just go with what everyone else said about the charge air volume explaining the slow first gear, unfortunately I don't have time to watch the boost gauge and tach in first, so I don't know if I'm getting full boost. This IC is quite a bit larger than what I wanted and this is exactly the poor response I was trying to avoid.

The good news is that the guy from the dyno just called and he's open today, so I'll be going down there in an hour. I'll let everyone know how it goes, and if your in CT stop by VR/Bristol around 11-12:00 and check it out yourself. You can watch my money pit make low power.

 

[1_bar_goes_far]

Greatings.
I too just put a FMIC on my laser. Was the 7" kit from Extreme turbo systems. I've noticed that I can run a lot more boost now and there for its a lot faster. I was running 14psi with 0-1 counts of knock and now I'm running 19psi with 0-3 counts. But like you, I noticed the car runs like cr@p too. It pulls hard up to about 5500-6000 rpm but after that it seems to just run out of power. I had to change my injector comp in my ecu from 542cc to 518cc just to get my trims close to 100% also. Why is this? Is it due to the decrease in pressure drop and intake charge temp? I need to get a wb and make sure im not going lean but I watched the O2 voltage on my nb and it stayed constant even as the car lost power at higher rpm. I have also redone the maps to have a LOT more fuel up top to see if it corrected the problem. All that seemed to do was get rid of a little knock. Im starting to think that the ignition cant keep up. Does this sound right? My plug wires are cheap ones, might need to get some better ones. Im interested in hearing how your dyno day turns out, MyBeatGSX.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Just got back from the dyno. Last night I had set the SAFC 12% richer across the board to be safe. Its a good thing I did this because even with this compensation my first pull stayed up at 12.8:1 and we let off at 4,000rpm (so be careful how you drive your's, 1_bar_goes_far). A few small adjustments and runs later I ended up with a disappointing 277hp and 270ft/lbs, at an AFR of 11:1 which is 0.5 richer than I ran the last time I dynoed. We couldn't do any real tuning because I don't have a logger yet to watch timing, so we just shot for that AFR. According to the people at the shop (and I agree) its the 2.5" catback that's holding up power. Although peak power was only up 10hp I gained between 15-25hp through all of the mid range, but at higher RPMs it starts to fall off.

I also REALLY need to cut that bumper. The top half of the intercooler is getting no airflow and gets pretty hot. That will be my project for the afternoon.

Here's the chart. Any thoughts or opinions?

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[JayRolla]

Its not the 2.5" exhuast thats holding you back, its something else. Ive seen over 300whp on a 16g with 2.5" exhaust. My brother dynoed 300whp and 300flb torque at 17psi on his 16g with 2.5" exhaust.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

What else did he have done? Was he AWD? It definately looks like an air restriction. If you look through all of my past dyno charts and watch the torque curve, the more parts I add the further up it pushes the point of torque drop off. Like I said in the last post, below peak, power is up significantly at the same boost level. Had it continued the torque curve it was started on it would have easily been 300hp. But instead at 6,000rpm the torque has almost dropped back down to what it was with the sidemount. And keep in mind, having a 2.5" turbo back is not the same as having a 3" downpipe that mates to a 2.5" catback. The air comes down and slams into the 1/2" of overlapping flange and then has to squeeze in there. That's probably a far bigger restriction than the 2.5" pipe itself.

I don't have any restricting parts left other than that catback. Am I missing something? What could be bottle necking at higher rpm?

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

There's no way to tell without a log. You could be too lean up top, getting knock and pulling timing, or too rich and pulling timing due to airflow.

 

[larsrya8]

Unfortunately I don't have a logger yet, that's coming next.

Get one. Quickly. You're adjusting the S-AFC without knowing what is happening inside the motor. Don't go WOT again until you get a logger.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

There's no way to tell without a log. You could be too lean up top, getting knock and pulling timing, or too rich and pulling timing due to airflow.

You know I was using a wideband right? Its not too rich and its not too lean. Look at the wideband log right at the bottom of the dyno chart, its clearly visible. Its dead on 11:1 from boost onset to redline. The tune is safe.

Read my entire post before commenting.

 

[larsrya8]

You know I was using a wideband right? Its not too rich and its not too lean. Look at the wideband log right at the bottom of the dyno chart, its clearly visible. Its dead on 11:1 from boost onset to redline. The tune is safe.

Read my entire post before commenting.

It's good to know what the ECU thinks is going on inside the motor. Especially if what it sees differs from what the dyno's wideband sees. Besides, how can you set your cruise and idle trims if you can't see them? You don't even know what timing you are running. These are things that a wideband won't tell you.

There are usually several inexpensive ("inexpensive" when compared to replacing engine parts) loggers available in the classifieds so it is just silly not to invest in one.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I'm definately getting a logger as soon as possible. I was just making the point that an 11:1 AFR is an 11:1 AFR, regardless of what the ECU is seeing.

As for the low throttle settings, I'm not too concerned. I only have 550's, that's within the ECU's own compensation range. Its set to -8% at idle and -16% across the rest. Part throttle triming is what an O2 sensor is for. Gas is so expensive I've decided to get an automatic weekly deduction of $200 from my check sent to Exxon/Mobil. A mpg or 2 isn't that big of a deal.

 

[bullettdsm]

He's absolutely correct about the exhaust (who was there? Aarron? I thought that everybody went to the SO?). Gotta get rid of that exhaust and go 3". It'll gain you a lot. That being said, there are probably other adjustments that will help you, but like you say, without a logger you gotta wait. Plus with the 3" exhaust you're just gonna want to tune it again, so you may as well wait. It sounds like you are right where you need to be.

MB

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Your the older (no offense ) guy with like the Country's fastest N/T or something like that right? I've seen you up there a few times. At least I know what you say is reliable.

No, none of the VR guys were there. It was just Jonathan and he's the one that gave me the advice.

 

[1_bar_goes_far]

Well, I didnt' see anyone answere why we have to add so much fuel just after adding a FMIC. And I guess its time to spend even more money and get a 3" turbo back now as I know my car is making some decent power on pump gas and I have a 2.5" straight turbo back right now but I guess I could see even more gains if I upgrade. Hey, my car will at least go faster due to my wallet weighing less, right And I know I have plenty of fuel, and that I'm not knocking. So whats the reason for my power droping off above 5500rpm. Or is it the exaust not being able to flow?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

A better question is why did I have to add so much fuel for such a small power gain? Its obviously getting alot more air because I had to add alot more fuel... that should equal alot more power.

 

[bullettdsm]

Your the older (no offense ) guy

! No, no offense taken! And yes that's me.

MB

 

[bullettdsm]

Oops, to answer your last post. W/the evo III and your mods (safc tuner) those numbers aren't that bad. I suspect that you will be just over 300 with the exhaust. Mike from our board (I can't remember his board name) had the same problem as you. He gained 40+ hp (from dyno info) just by changing to the 3" (I sold him mine). Yeah, he had a bigger turbo, but the gains will be there because the flowing ability is there.

Do I suspect that you might have some little leaks to take care of? Certainly possible. DSMLink can also get you a little bit more. But, again, you got a safe tune right now that will get you around. You're not washing out cylinders (like I thought you were before with +8 settings) and your A/F looks safe (ideally egt numbers would be good, but the numbers seem safe) but you'll want to wait for your logger and exhaust and then you can fine tune. Sometimes patience is your best tool.

MB

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Oddly enough, the car is as leak free as its ever been. This is partly why I'm very disappointed with the number. I did a leak test just before going to the dyno and at 20psi on a stone cold motor it managed a very good 1psi drop every 5 seconds. I repeated the test 3 times just to make sure and the results were the same every time.


What do you think about just running an open DP? I know its ghetto but its a temporary solution until I can find an exhaust. And do you have a recommended exhaust? I don't care about sound, I just want the straightest, least restrictive pipe possible. It doesn't even need a muffler.


And as a side note to anyone running a tall intercooler in with a '95-'96 style bumper, cutting the bumper made a world of difference. No more hot spots up top and it doesn't look that bad.

 

[keymaster]

For the cat-back, I'd just recommend getting one custom made. It'll be cheaper than buying a "name-brand" one online. I got my whole 3" mandrel-bent turboback for $550 with a muffler, which is a bit higher than I would have liked, but it was the cheapest I could find at the time. After then 90* bend in the downpipe, it's completely straight until right before the muffler with one small bend.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

That's alot for a straight piece of pipe and one bend. I'm going to see if VR will make me a side exit that can just go on a diagonal (sp?) from the DP to the rear of the passenger door, no muffler, nothing special. Just something so it isn't dumping under my seat where I have to smell it in the winter.

I definately won't go with any typical brand name systems, I don't want any muffler/resonator/crap and they all have that. I just want a pipe with a nice tip.