got the FMIC on, have some ??'s

[nightspeed87]

once i get my new engine in im only going to have open 3in dp for a good minute, ( hope short shifting throughout city driving helps to keep noise down, i dont know how loud my set up is going to be ) And i like your cutting the front bumper idea, i think it would even benefit more on a 1g because the bumpers air dam seem even more smaller and restrictive on the 1g cars.... I dont want a huge front mount core on my car, i think those would work better for cars with huge turbos pushing 25lbs of boost and up... I just want a smaller fmic on mines... Before you put your fmic did you have stock lower and upper icps? If so that would explain your drastic change in a/f values and flow, because the front mounts hard pipeing is flowing a lot more cfm than the crappy small flexible hoses that come on the car stock... Allowing the turbo to push more air even at the same boost level I imagen ( similar to a bigger turbo pushing more cfm at the same boost as a smaller turbo) So you opened up the intake tract a lot, and your brushing off more heat, and maybe at higher rpm the intercooler is heat soaking a little ( might be maxing your turbos efficiency point maybe?? )... Well at least thats my guess, ( so no need to correct me if im wrong just a thought ) but good luck with your set up.

 

[1_bar_goes_far]

Nightspeed87, If you are looking for a small core, then look at the extreme turbo ones. Thats what I just put on my car and its big enuff that the outlet tank is still cool to the touch after a 1-3 gear pull at 18-19psi but isn't so big that I notice anymore turbo lag. Not sure if you were asking youre piping question to me or mybeatgsx, but I had stock pipes on mine befor I put this FMIC on. I looked at my trims after about 100miles of driving last night and they fall withing +/-5% of 100% so I guess I'm good to go now with 518cc set point for my 550's. I just wish I could figure out my higher rpm problem. Shifting at 5500 is killer. Although I still managed to beat a SRT-4 that runs 13.1's all day long shifting that short. Did anyone have problems with over heating after a FMIC install? I was running a little hot so I went to Home Depot Racing and got some flashing and self drilling screws and made a lower air dam along with ones that go from the left and right uprights of the bumper back to the core support. Hard to say if it helped any since it was only 62 deg. last night.

 

[talon96tsi]

Nightspeed87, If you are looking for a small core, then look at the extreme turbo ones. Thats what I just put on my car and its big enuff that the outlet tank is still cool to the touch after a 1-3 gear pull at 18-19psi but isn't so big that I notice anymore turbo lag. Not sure if you were asking youre piping question to me or mybeatgsx, but I had stock pipes on mine befor I put this FMIC on. I looked at my trims after about 100miles of driving last night and they fall withing +/-5% of 100% so I guess I'm good to go now with 518cc set point for my 550's. I just wish I could figure out my higher rpm problem. Shifting at 5500 is killer. Although I still managed to beat a SRT-4 that runs 13.1's all day long shifting that short. Did anyone have problems with over heating after a FMIC install? I was running a little hot so I went to Home Depot Racing and got some flashing and self drilling screws and made a lower air dam along with ones that go from the left and right uprights of the bumper back to the core support. Hard to say if it helped any since it was only 62 deg. last night.

Any chance we can get some pictures?

 

[daren_p]

Not having a logger defently won't help you to see the best dyno numbers. Just because you have what you think is a good air/fuel ratio doesn't mean the car isn't knock & pulling timing, etc. Looks like thats next on your list so we don't have to say anything more on that subject. As for your low/mid settings on the SAFC, now I don't know the SAFC as I use DSMLink, but 550's won't be in the adjustment range of the ecu in closed loop mode. Running 550's you will usually need to remove ~18% fuel to compensate for them. The ecu can only adjust +/- 12%. But it looks like you have removed enough fuel in these areas to be in the adjustment range. Keep us updated, like I said I noticed a bigger expected gain when I switched to a FMIC and didn't notice any lag & I stepped up from a HRC SMIC with 2.25" IC pipes to a VP FMIC with 2.5" pipes (but the pipes are a shorter route).

 

[1_bar_goes_far]

Here are two pics of my FMIC . I can take more of specific parts if anyone wants. The core bolts right to the crash beam so it doesn't stick above the bumper cover any. It does hange below it by half an inch or so.

 

[talon96tsi]

Here are two pics of my FMIC . I can take more of specific parts if anyone wants. The core bolts right to the crash beam so it doesn't stick above the bumper cover any. It does hange below it by half an inch or so.

Whats the web address for where you bought that kit? Looks good!

 

[1_bar_goes_far]

http://extremeintercoolers.com/
Like I said befor, Mine is the 7" kit. If you get one, be prepaired to make a mess with the power steering line mod. They told me over the phone it would only drip a little. Yeah right. Try the intire tank all over my frame and altinator. Oh well. Not too bad a install I guess. I had a hard time due to my custom intake manifold though. But I ordered two hump connectors for like 23 bucks shipped off ebay and just had my dad cut the pipe and it fits close enuff for me.

I still dont get why we have to add more fuel just because of the FMIC though. I can see it flowing more and all that at high boost. But at idle and just normal driving, it only takes so much fuel to go, ya know. I guess it might be due to the charge being cooler, but that doesn't realy make me happy. I like to know why something is happening, not just that it is.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I'd also like to know why people have to readjust the BISS after putting on a FMIC. How does the intercooler you're running have any effect on how much air is bypassing the TB? Its such an insignificant amount of air needed to idle the car, I don't see the better flow making a bit of difference. No way I'll believe the stock SMIC or stock pipes are a restriction even at idle.

Anyone have an explaination?

 

[1_bar_goes_far]

Here we go, I just figured it out All of the settings on our car change because we removed another inadiquate stock DSM part and the car is slowly becoming what it should have been from the factory and the car is fighting back

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I don't buy that, doesn't matter where you heard it from. It isn't so much of a restriction that bypass of idle air or the idle a/f ratio would be changed. That's just not possible.

Do you really believe that the teeny tiny ISC passages in the TB outflow the stock sidemount? No way.

 

[1_bar_goes_far]

I was joking ya know. And I dont know if idle was affected on my car since I put a new ISC motor and ecu that worked on at the same time. I have no clue why idle would be affected either. Anyone care to speculate as to why that would change too?

 

[pneumo]

Ohh I can speculate. How about, you fixed an old boost leak when you installed the new fmic kit?
Or maybe you didn't get a good seal somewhere in the new pipes and created a new boost leak?

If there's a boost leak it would make the car run leaner at idle and richer at WOT. A bigger leak would make the car idle high and/or idle surge.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

How about, I didn't have any boost leaks before and I still don't have any now. Explain that.



Another question to throw out there for some thoughts.

I went out for a drive just a minute ago. My friend and I drove around for an hour, mostly relaxed driving, but on boost occationally. I decided to make a 3rd gear pull coming back to my house. 1st was fine, 2nd was rough, 3rd was slow as death and full of misfires. It took so long to pull in third I just gave up and let off at like 6,000rpm. WHY is it back to running like crap? I didn't get a chance to leak test it tonight, but it was COMPLETELY leak free 4 days ago and I've been driving around with no problems since. All the IC pipes are still in place and haven't moved a millimeter. I just don't see it blowing a big leak overnight when every part/gasket/seal in the intake system is brand new. I will leak test it tommorow for the 97th time in past 5 days, continuing to look for a leak that just isn't there.

So what else could it be? I had about an 1/8th tank of gas according to the gas gauge (we all know how reliable they are), could it have run lean when all the fuel ran backwards? This is all I'm hoping it is.

I'm getting really fed up with this. My car was more reliable and felt faster with the sidemount.

 

[pneumo]

I thought ALL dsm's had boost leaks!

A better question is why did I have to add so much fuel for such a small power gain? Its obviously getting alot more air because I had to add alot more fuel... that should equal alot more power.

Why do you keep saying that you HAD TO add fuel? If you're pulling in more air, the MAF will read it and the ecu will automatically add more fuel to compensate. Your SAFC should be set around -18% to compensate for the 550 injectors. Your settings are richer than that.

After re-reading you post I get the feeling your car is misfiring from running too rich. Yes, I know the wideband sensor says 11.1, but there are ways of messing up WB readings. A wideband is still an O2 sensor, not a fuel sensor, not a burned:unburned fuel ratio sensor. It reads oxygen. If your car misfires it sends unburned oxygen out the exhaust, and the WB reads the extra oxygen and reports a lean AF ratio. Your dyno chart has the evidence. Take another look at it, see how the AF ratio line begins to fluctuate around 5500rpm? Similarly, HP and torque start to fluctuate rapidly at that point. It gets worse as rpms go up. That's your bottleneck.

So I'd recomend new plugs and wires if you haven't changed them recently. Get a logger and start tuning. Turn down the boost a couple psi and retune with leaner settings on the SAFC. HTH

 

[allturbo]

Yeah, I would at least check the plugs if you haven't already done it. My cousin's car was feeling like crap one time so we did boost leak checks and found none. Looked at the plugs and guess what... one of the gaps was nearly shut

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Magically the car is running just fine today.

So here's the plan. The cat-back is coming off tonight. I'm going to make an attempt to check/set base timing using a timing light on the COP (not sure if that's going to work). Then I'll do the boost leak test. Then put in some new and smaller gapped plugs (.025 to be safe). Then re-dyno on saturday.

A question for pneumo. In order to be misfiring from richness it must need to be digustingly rich correct? Like <9:1? When I dyno'd the car mostly stock, the wideband worked just fine at a maxed out 10:1. I agree with what you're saying because I can watch the narrow band voltage go lean every time the engine misfires at idle (which it has done since I bought the car). The only thing that confuses me is that there's no reason for it to be running that much richer. I rewired my fuel pump before I put the FMIC on and the car ran just fine.

As far as why I had to add more fuel. I've heard two different thoughts on that. Your side (and what I always thought to be true), that when tuning with an SAFC all you need to do it get the offset for the injectors correct, and between the MAF and the AFPR the fueling will remain proportional when increasing/decreasing the boost or flow (at least within reason). But then I've heard that you need to retune after any changes in boost or airflow because the MAF doesn't compensate correctly. WTF ???

 

[siceclipse]

1_bar_goes_far:

I bought a 9" custom from JR. it was his new hybrid syle and im running hot on the highway now.

after making ducting like you did i went from 226* to 206*
its nice but i still want to be at 199-195 at all times on the highway.
just called Extreme and JR is gonna call me back when he gets in the office.


Tyler:

the reason you add more fuel is because the air is cooled down so much more that its more dense. so more air from the FMIC means a leaner condition. you add the fuel to bring it back to Stoich conditions.

 

[daren_p]

So your running a COP setup with plugs gapped at 30 thou? Do you have an aftermarket ignition? I have seen several posts on here with guys having issues with the COP setup while still running the factory ignition & plugs gapped the same way as pre COP install. Most gap the plugs to 28 thou, so you are already running a slightly larger gap (according to your profile). Regapping the plugs to 25 thou is probably a good idea. As far as adding a FMIC and having to change the tune because of the cooler air not sure how true this is. After my FMIC install, while I did notice an increase in airflow (lb/min), & the car pulled a good amount better, I didn't have to retune the car and the readings on my wideband stayed the same as they did before the install...

So here's the thing the MAS adds fuel depending on airflow, so your thought would be it will automatically add the correct amount of fuel based on airflow, baro pressure, temp, etc, etc. Every amount of air will have a specific amount of fuel added, this is what I thought & it seems to be correct as I have changed my setup abit, raised & lowered boost quite abit & my airfuel ratio never seems to change (if it does its to small to notice). But I have read that there are several different enrichment amounts in the ecu & depending on the MAS reading it will pick this enrichment level, ie the amount of fuel added isn't an infinite amount but will be chosen from the several different levels (ie fuel maps) based on airflow,etc. So can someone who knows exactly how fuel enrichement is chosen explain this.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Here's the update...

Checked the ignition timing. Base was 15* advanced. Set it back to 5*, the car still idles like crap, runs like crap, misfires at the top of 3rd like crap, is slow like crap. The timing was this far off before the FMIC was installed and it ran beautifully.

Then I removed the catback. Its disgustingly loud and not staying that way for more than a few days, but its hard to notice a gain when the car is RUNNING LIKE CRAP.


Hopefully I'll be able to get new plugs (the ones in there already have <10k miles on them) or at least regap what's in there. The .030 gap was never a problem before, I don't see why it would be now. I realize other people have had problems (and I hate the COP myself) but never had that high RPM break up problem until after the FMIC was installed. I don't see how the FMIC and 10 extra hp would be enough to overrun the COP with that gap. Not to mention, even where I did get a big torque gain, its below the RPM that it starts to break up. So I don't even think you could say that increased cylinder pressure is preventing it from jumping the gap.


So after it cools, I'm off to do the plugs and boost leak test... and I'm hoping desparately that solves the problem.

 

[siceclipse]

just talked to JR and he said he would take the I/C back for an ispection.
we both chuckled wondering could there be anything wrong

he gave me a word of advice.

he said richen your setup a little. "if your flowing 40* cooler air your flowing a lot more of it. give it the fuel it wants and it will bring the engine temps down as well as the coolant."

hope this helps anyone when wondering about changing your fuel setup after the front mount install

 

[bullettdsm]

IMO: get new plugs and re-gap. I get new plugs everytime I race. Cheap insurance. When you take your plugs out you will see how rich your are running. -8 is pretty rich for your set-up. I wasn't that concerned because I thought you were going to get a logger and 3" and that situation was only temporary. You really need to log to get the full picture. I'm not so sure that this is a boost leak situation. I'd lend you my logger but she's busted until I get the engine back together (going with 9.6 comp and a Red).

I don't like the COP. Heard too many stories and seen problems first hand (ask Raif). You might want to take that out of the picture by putting stock back on. You're welcome to borrow coils and wires I got if that helps.

IDK if you addressed this or not but what was the history of the engine prior to the frontmount. You say that it was at 15* without the FMIC. Was there something being hidden by the timing being bumped up that far? Are you sure that the timing is done correctly (the timing belt timing)?

I know the frustration is mounting but I really think that logging can help answer a lot of those questions.

Again, IMO,

MB

 

[MyBeatGSX]

No boost leaks at all... big surprise...

The timing was way off because back when I first got the car, I took it to VR to get the timing checked. My idle was horrible and I thought the timing might be too retarded. They said timing can't be done on a 2G because there is no ECU ground (not true for '95-'96). So they set the CAS in the center and called it a day. Its been like that until today.

I agree that the COP is garbage. I will go back to stock coils if my problem isn't gone tommorow. I bought new BPR7's and gapped them to .025. I haven't even started the car because its too loud without the exhaust on and its too late for that noise. The old plugs aren't disgustingly dead black rich, but have a good amount of carbon around the base and the electrodes are a very dark brown/redish color. The plugs however are not the least bit worn, no surprise seeing as how they have less than 10k on them. Its definately running rich. I'll have pics of them up tommorow so everyone can analyze for themselves. My stock coils are still bolted in place on the manifold (for just this reason) and I have brand new wires, but thank you for the offer.

To correct what my settings are. The -8% was low throttle idle, I have no part throttle driveability issues so no need to get into that. My high throttle settings go between -13% at lower RPM to -22% at higher RPM.

The timing belt time was done correctly. Sean from VR did the belt. When I did the oil pan awhile back, I didn't pay attention to the order of the bolts and put back a long one under the timing belt. This tore a big gash in it. Sean said the engine was still in time when he got it, and I would hope it was still in time when he put the new belt on, its what I paid them for.

Regardless of all this. The point is that the only thing that changed was the installation of the FMIC. The car was in perfect running order before the install. In fact it was running just fine on the dyno after the install and for a few days after that. It was very fast for about 3 days. And now it starts breaking up under load. In fact it seems the more load its under the more it starts to break up. i.e. in 1st gear its fine. 2nd gear it starts breaking up just before redline. 3rd gear it starts to break up at 5,500rpm. And 4th gear I've never made it to because I let off when it starts dying in 3rd.

This seems ignition related to me. It has no effect on partial throttle driveability. I can boost 20psi at part throttle all day long, at any RPM I want. The car will be quick and smooth. But the second the pedal goes to the floor, it falls on its face. Now keep in mind, this is a very light misfire, its not a horrible "chug chug" or "bang bang" its not like its fuel cutting or anything, its just very rough and loses significant power. Breaking up describes it better than misfiring, so I'm sorry if that discription was misleading.

Yes the logger is on its way. However they cost money, money I don't have right now. I'm trying to find someone that will let me borrow one for the dyno on saturday.

 

[pneumo]

So here's the thing the MAS adds fuel depending on airflow, so your thought would be it will automatically add the correct amount of fuel based on airflow, baro pressure, temp, etc, etc. Every amount of air will have a specific amount of fuel added, this is what I thought & it seems to be correct as I have changed my setup abit, raised & lowered boost quite abit & my airfuel ratio never seems to change (if it does its to small to notice). But I have read that there are several different enrichment amounts in the ecu & depending on the MAS reading it will pick this enrichment level, ie the amount of fuel added isn't an infinite amount but will be chosen from the several different levels (ie fuel maps) based on airflow, etc. So can someone who knows exactly how fuel enrichement is chosen explain this?

Sure. First the ecu takes airflow readings from the MAF. Since the MAF measures the mass of the air it automatically compensates for temperature and pressure differences. The ecu uses the airflow reading for several things; deciding to use open or closed loop, setting the load level for map lookups, and calculating A/F ratio.

If the airflow is low enough the ecu will use closed loop, which relies on the O2 sensor for A/F ratio feedback. At higher airflow the ecu used open loop, which ignores the O2 sensor and uses the fuel maps to add the right ammount of fuel for the ammount of air coming in.

The fuel maps are arranged in a table with 14 columns for different rpm, and 12 rows that correspond to load level. Load level 1 is the lightest load, 12 is the highest load. 168 points in all. The ecu does not have to choose an individual point on the fuel map, it can find the average between points that correspond to the exact rpm and airflow it's seeing at the time.

To find load level the ecu looks at the mass of airflow taken in during one engine revolution. The unit used by the ecu is Grams per Revolution, or g/rev. This is closely related to engine torque output, so g/rev tends to be highest at peak torque and drops off as rpm climbs above the torque peak. The fuel (and timing) maps are scaled so a typical DSM will be on the highest load level when running around 15psi of boost or more.

The fuel map consists of target A/F ratio's. For a given ammount of air coming in the ecu will calculate how much fuel it needs to add in order to hit the target A/F ratio. So when you're already on the highest load level and you add more airflow via higher boost or more mods, the ecu keeps calculating the ammount of fuel needed to hit the target A/F ratio for the ammount of air. The target stays the same.

The richest points on fuel map call for a target A/F ratio of 9.3:1 at load level 12. Load level 11 is just as rich from 5000rpm and up. Each load level gets gradually leaner as the load gets lighter.

Back to the problem, another explanation for the fluctuating A/F ratio in the dyno chart might be the airflow readings may be erratic? Have you tried to capture a 3rd gear pull on the SAFC? This would show a graph of the airflow sensor readings so you could see if it's steady or not.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Finally a good explaination for that, thank you.


Yes the airflow readings are very erratic. But why? Its been like that for awhile now, I had meant to make a thread about it but never got around to it. I also get a huge spike in MAF readings when the BOV vents (it is recirculated). But again, it was all like this long before the FMIC and never gave me a problem.

Using the chart on the SAFC, it definately gets very jagged (big ups and downs) at WOT. I have no idea how to test if the MAF is good or not. I heard that tapping on it or hitting it while idling would make the reading jump if its bad, but this did nothing.

Which a/f log are you guys looking at? The blue one is the only one that matters. The red one was the first full pull we made before doing any fine tuning of stuff.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

No more misfires. It could definately be smoother, but its not worse than before the FMIC. Hard to say if its faster, doesn't really feel that different to me.

So off the dyno for what will probably be more disappointment tommorow.


I tried everything and every angle possible to get a good picture, but either it was too dark or using the flash would make them look bleached white. This one is the most accurate depiction of the color if you look at the furthest one away. As always, cylinder 4 has way more deposits than the rest (you can't see it in the picture), low compression in that cylinder maybe or a sticky valve, or maybe its just typical poor air distribution because its the first in line. In fact that intake manifold design must suck because I can easily put these plugs in order from 1-4 just by looking at the level of deposit build up (just checked an old set of plugs I have and I can do the same with them).

I think the weirdest thing is the almost redish dark brown color they have, I've never seen that before.

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