Good 4g63 header

[Black95GSX]

That's what I thought.... wasn't sure though since they both dropped the maxrev kits.... due to "complications"

 

[JET]

I can vouch for this stainless cracking. I live in MN and know 3 people who have had Archer headers crack. I also know one who has had one forever and it didn't crack. Archer also no longer makes the headers.

As for the explanation on work hardening, the example you used about bending the metal back and forth and it breaking is fatigue, not work hardening. Work hardenening is caused by heat. The real reason alot of headers crack is like you stated in an earlier post. When you weld something it becomes warped from the heat of the welds. This warping puts stress on the welds and causes them to crack. Which stainless are you using for the headers? I would suggest using high carbon T304. I made forms used to bend windshields for several years (1300-1400 degrees). We would weld them all up and then heat them to 1700 degrees a few times and then reform them. It is amazing how much they would warp from the welds (they are pretty flat so they could release the stress by bending, unlike a header).
I also agree that there is a huge difference between MIG and TIG. The only real positive about MIG is that you can make a bigger weld. Other than that it is just easier to use. A TIG has a stronger weld for the size and has many more rods available to perfectly match the material which really helps against cracking.

 

[Team Ducktape]

Here is another "swing-out design" I cannot take credit for the design. A guy by the name of Mike T. is the designer. One was duplicated used then it was traded by me for some pistons from a guy that works at AMS, and as far as I know it hasn't cracked yet. I will not argue about welding, but the choices for rods is just as great as choices for wire for the migs gas or no gas/ spray or no spray. The thinckness, composition, ect ,ect can be the same as the rods using the migs wire. If the time is taken to make these right they can hold up, regaurdless of the welders. Like I said both have their pluses and minuses. Some metals can be prepared to favor either types of welding through, heating, cooling, acid dipping, relieveing stress during and after the welding ect,ect. The choice in metal itself will determine if it will hold the heat/pressure, along with the right choice in rods or wire. I don't want to give anyone the idea I know anything, but I will talk of the things I have directly tried and or have experieces with.

 

[FFgeoff]

damn this thread sure got some replies...

i wantawd: thanks for the compliment, i think some people should read Maximum Boost -- its a great book, every time i read it i pickup another tidbit of info!!!

z1500: I work at maxrev during the year but am not a true "employee" I prototype stuff at my leisure and i work on various customer cars. I do some of the more intricate turbo stuff, but the general labor/cnc running/polishing etc i leave to the other guys. Full-Race is jsut a small side thing i started on the side after my former employer completely #@%#@%#@%#@%ed me (z10eng/motorsports) and stole all of my designs... ill save that story for another day. Full-Race is just me making manifolds in between school.

The manifolds you guys are talking about that mario had (is bader the dude with the black gsx and a supra??) is simply a log style manifold made from the same material as my manifold. It is a super thickwall stainless manifold, but it is simply log style. The stock dsm manifolds are definately better. I think the guy with the black gsx had a stock manifold with a custom adaptor plate made with a t3 flange on it. That thing moved out, nice setup for sure. Marios setup worked horribly. We used a GT25R on that car. That has to be the worst designed turbo ever!! There was actually a great article in a recent issue of SCC about how much that turbo sucks. The big cold side is great but that turbine wheel is just soooooooo small it couldnt get the cold wheel spinning hard enough. too bad, becuase had we gone to a gt30 mario would be lighting his tires up on every tap of the gas.... what has mario gone to since?

JET -- thanks for the post. Work-hardening means that the hardness increases considerably as the material is deformed You are correct in the specific example i posted being an example of fatiguing, as one may refer to that as "plastic deformation", would you agree with that? Plastic deformation (fatiguing in this case) does, however, fall under the category of work hardening if the item gets harder and harder (more brittle) as work is done to it. We are both correct here. One point i just realized i forgot to mention that HEAVILY factors into the work harding of stainless steel is the heat input.

When heated to a specific range, for a specific length of time, the molecules of the material rearrange themselves to form a new, harder material. This sounds a lot like heat treatment of metals. The same process that heat treats metal is also the process that causes work hardening, but on a smaller scale. The exhaust gasses will certainly work harden the material, especially when the car is shut off and the stainless steel goes from very high temperatures to ambient temperatures quickly... over and over and over again. Although not all metals are subject to work hardening, most stainless steels, carbon alloys, and superalloys readily work harden.

Now to the stress aspect, you again definately are correct! The residual stresses left over from the manifolds construction are actually very easy to get rid of! I sever my flanges in three spot so that each runner has its own "flange" so to speak. Once the flanges is severed all of the residual stresses are relieved and the flange is free to flex. There is so much stress that after cutting throught the flange the runners will often pull up to 1/8" in between each one.

The material i use is as follows: Street cars get 8 gauges forged 304/304L tube, race cars use 321 and sick $$ manifolds use inconel.

youre right on the money abou thte welds, no real manifold would be tig welded, save the mig for the trailer hitches...

 

[johnd]

Originally posted by FFgeoff







If you were to get a set of custom turbo manifold like this for a small blcok 350, i am willing to guarantee that whoever you get it from it will cost the same or more, and chanes are that you will still get thin wall tubing. I know of no other manufacturer that uses the thick tubing i do simply because it is so difficult and time consuming to work with. KOOKS from long island wont use it and if you spec a set of turbo headers for a mustang youre going to spend 2800$ and it will be thin wall 304.

.

i can attest to this. i wanted a single turbo setup manifold/s for my mustang and kooks qouted me $2gs. not funny. your product is very nice. what kind of warranty does it come with? if its guaranteed for life then i may be a potential future customer.

 

[FFgeoff]

There is no warranty expressed or implied. If it ever cracks send it to me and ill fix it. I still have yet to get one back, and if i ever did get one back id be MORE than happy to repair/replace everything on it that has failed.

im interested in seeing the mustang manifolds/engine bay however. do you have any pics of the manifolds on and off the car? I am in AZ right now and wont be back on the east coast until May so if you need it done immediately i cant. Im interested, but certianly can not commit.

 

[DSMu4ia]

Geoff,

Are you still doing the 4g63 manifolds?

 

[stangtt]

Originally posted by FFgeoff

im interested in seeing the mustang manifolds/engine bay however. do you have any pics of the manifolds on and off the car?

Geoff,

Here is a pic of my twin turbo headers installed. They are thin wall 304/ceramic coated and have yet to crack. They also support much of the weight of the turbos on their own. I have been one of the lucky ones I suppose. I have pics of them alone during the install, but that was 4 yrs ago, so I'd have to dig around for them.

Regards.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[NosLaser]

Stangtt,

Have you considered looking into a Cobra or Holley Systemax intake manifold? It would work a bit better with the turbo system, and I guarentee you'll pick up power. Setup looks nice though.

Regards,

 

[stangtt]

Originally posted by NosLaser
Stangtt,

Have you considered looking into a Cobra or Holley Systemax intake manifold? It would work a bit better with the turbo system, and I guarentee you'll pick up power. Setup looks nice though.

Regards,

Thx for the compliments. Funny you say that, because I tried the Holley on it last year. Lost a ton of upper rpm power compared to the Victor. Also the long runner intake actually gave too much torque making it nearly impossible to have any traction in the first four gears. . I ended up puting the victor back on. No better intake for forced induction imo. The Cobra is much better suited to a lightly modded natural aspirated engine. The ports are much too restrictive and small for the horsepower that thing puts out.

 

[NosLaser]

You know, I kinda commented prematurely without knowing that much about your setup. I should have asked what kind of rpm you turn, and also what power level you are at. For a mild turbo setup on a stock short block stang, the Cobra or the Systemax would be ideal. Obviously you are able to turn some rpm (I'm assuming an A4, or R302 block?) and are making a higher power level. It's reassuring to see more and more Mustang guys having success with turbo kits.

Regards,

 

[stangtt]

Its a built 331 ci R302. Mild "street" tune - 736 rwhp, 690 rwtq

It regularly sees the high side of 7,600 rpm. Needless to say the GSX is my daily driver.

 

[FFgeoff]

As of right now im not making any 4g63 manifolds. If someone is seriously interested i would consider making more, but the majority of DSM enthusiasts who appeared to be interested originally just dropped the ball once it was time to pay. As of right now im just sticking with hondas and nissans.

that mustang looks sick. Very nice work for sure! Ceramic coating the manifold certianly helps to extend its life, theres no doubt about that. What size turbo is that? It looks like its a straight t04e? I cant really see the compressor at all but just guessing.

if you ever need help with the fabrication end of things, feel free to ask, but it looks like youre pretty much all set! best of luck to ya!

 

[NosLaser]

...Its a built 331 ci R302. Mild "street" tune - 736 rwhp, 690 rwtq

It regularly sees the high side of 7,600 rpm. Needless to say the GSX is my daily driver. ...

Color me jealous. Without divuldging to much info on the board prematurely, I am building a turbo Mustang and was planning on going with a 331 (good rod/stroke ratio, good rpm motor) and making big power, but now I have stepped down and am only going to do a very mild setup and retain the factory short block, use a set of AFR heads, a smaller (maybe Steeda 19) cam, systemax intake manifold, shorties, fuel system, etc. The car will prolly make just about 500 to the tires with hopes of not cracking the factory block in half. Another project I am currently working on is going to be taking a lot of my time/money away from the Mustang, but I can't get into that one too much right now.

Regards,

 

[stangtt]

Originally posted by FFgeoff
that mustang looks sick. Very nice work for sure! Ceramic coating the manifold certianly helps to extend its life, theres no doubt about that. What size turbo is that? It looks like its a straight t04e? I cant really see the compressor at all but just guessing.

if you ever need help with the fabrication end of things, feel free to ask, but it looks like youre pretty much all set! best of luck to ya!

Thanks! The pair in that pic are Garrett TE-44's from Cartech.
I sure could have used your help in the fab process 4 yrs ago!
The only thing to go on without a hitch was the FMIC.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[89PROOF]

I just typed a whole book on this subject but the forums server glitched and I lost it. Regardless, I know this thread has been dead for a while, but anyone who may stumble across it and actually read this far needs to take the time to go to http://burnsstainless.com/TechArticles/Stainless_article/stainless_article.html and read the entire article, word for word. Then read it again. Then re-read it. And make sure you understand every last word of it, as it will pretty much answer every question you may have about header construction, header durability, and what works and what doesn't. Mild steel and 304 stainless headers for turbo applications do not work and never will work, regardless of how well they're fabricated. The heat will destroy them. Unless you're going to build a 321 stainless, 347 stainless, or Inconel header, stick with a manifold. You may make more power with a mild or 304 stainless tubular header but it will not last anywhere near as long as a cast manifold. If you want power go header and be prepared to replace it (and possibly your turbo and wastegate) often. If you want guaranteed durability go with cast manifold. If you want both you have to have a 321 stainless header, tig welded with 347 filler rod. That simple.

 

[FFgeoff]

yeah well thats nice, but we still havent cracked one yet. We also use 321, upon customer request. thats not a problem. If i have the choice id rather use 304 or 316 thickwall. Its rated to 72ksi and 3000 degrees, for nuclear/chemical heat exchangers; i think it will work just fine.

 

[Team Ducktape]

Well for once I wil agree with FFgeoff, but only about his last sentence . The header that I traded to Tim at AMS was 304 stainless-and yes I still have not heard that it cracked-which I know they would tell me if it did. Granted the other headers I made were mostly 321. But then again like I said, what do I know.........

"yeah well thats nice, but we still havent cracked one yet. ."

 

[89PROOF]

Oh how I enjoy a good debate. Well since we've both obviously studied materials sciences allow me to explain to the other readers that if you reference the data supplied by the American Irons and Steels Institute, American Metalurgy Society, or your average second-year materials sciences textbooks, you'll see that 304 stainless is forged at 2100-2300 degrees farenheit and rapidly cooled to attain corrosion resistance. Its annealed at 1850-2050 degrees, followed of course by rapid cooling. And its melting point is 2650 degrees farenheit. Now not to argue with you, but if you've found a way to keep 304 stainless in a solid state at 3000 degrees farenheit, you've done what many talented metalurgists couldn't. There aren't many metals that don't melt by 3000 degrees. As for nuclear heat exchangers, in a fast breeder reactor liquid sodium is used as the heat extraction / cooling medium. The heat from the liquid sodium is passed to a heat exchanger that boils water to provide steam to turn the turbine. Liquid sodium changes state to a gas at 1027 degrees farenheit. The sodium therefore probably never leaves its liquid state and remains at temperatures between 208 degrees farenheit (its melting point) and 1000 degrees. If it was sustaining temperatures of over 800 degrees it would damage the 304 stainless and eventually destroy it. I highly doubt the Nuclear Regulatory Commission would allow this if it was the case. Am I mistaken or did I miss something? This is going to quickly stray off topic so I'll leave it at that.

 

[89PROOF]

Don't mistake my disagreeing with not wanting your product - I'd love one in 321 .065 thinwall with T3 & wastegate flanges. Or if you'd sell the set of flanges outright I've got my own mandrel dies and heliarc. Let me know...

 

[ITLLFLY]

304 header. no support bracket. been on car since 97 never a crack.


http://www.rothbuilt.com/speeddesign/images/HeaderAndTurbo.jpg

 

[DSMJim]

For those that are interested we (ETDRacing.com) will be making a 4G63 turbo header shortly. It will be ready for April hopefully. It is constructed from 321 stainless thickwall .125thou material. It's all welded with stainless rod and uses 1/2 flanges. After the build is complete its heat treated to 2000 deg to relieve the stress from the welding process then machined to make sure all flanges are flat. It comes with Garrett flange ONLY and with your choice of internal or external wastegate setup (Turbonetics, Tial, Turbosmart, HKS) all available flanges. They should retail for around $400-430 plus $100 for the ceramic coating so the price is very competitive plus the material, if you have read this entire thread, is top notch.

This very header is used on our world’s highest HP miata (450 wheel HP) which also holds the world MPH record at 127 but not ET (though were working on it ) and was used and abused all last year and never cracked. Its ceramic coated also to help resist heat and cracking and looks pimp. The 4G63 manifold will be similar in style. On this particular manifold the flange is a block, this is because it was a prototype when I took the pics, all flanges are cut like stock on production pieces.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Check out our website for info http://www.etdracing.com and click on fabrication to look at the manifold info. When it's ready the info will be posted on our website as well. We will be making them for B16/B18 Honda, SR20DET and KA24DET, 4G63, Miata 1.6L & 1.8L if you have any friends with other cars that may need something like this.

I'm not here to debate on our manifold design either, but will answer some questions.