Good 4g63 header

[FFgeoff]

by the way... the pictures posted were in the final stage of prototyping. I finished the final manifold design today and will get some more pics tomorrow. It looks slightly different, but certianly more refined, and the turbo angle is identical to stock. I will post pics shortly (tomorrow morning).

 

[KenTSIII]

Say if someone was to order one of these at some point in time... what would be the wait time? If they had it flanged for a Mitsu turbo... would it be able to conver to a garret flange at a later time?

 

[FFgeoff]

The wait time depends on how many i have. I am going to make a batch of 5 more manifolds and not weld a flange on them, waiting until the customer tells me their application.

Converting from a mitsu to a garret flange is not an easy task, but it can certainly be done. the best way would be to weld the garrett flange right to the bottom of the mitsu flange, or to simply make an adaptor and bolt that on. However, doing that would make the turbo hang lower and the compressor housing could then hit the front motor mount... so back to the idea of welding to the other flange. I think the best idea is to plan ahead, and just get a garrett flange (but im biased).

 

[jdmawd]

I for one would pay for the assurance that I am receiving a crack free product. Ken hit the nail right on the head. the import market is big, but nowhere near as big as the domestic market. Its all about number and they have more.

 

[BryanK]

Wow.... thats about all I have to say about that manifold design. Thats pretty much the most innovative design I've seen yet. I think I've recently cracked my stock manifold (I've got an exhause leak somewhere.... I put a screwdriver on the manifold and then up to my ear, and that is where the sound is loudest. Anyone have a better way for me to see where my exhaust is leaking?). I've always wondered, and perhaps this is an ignorant question, but is it possible to take one piece of steel (or whatever alloy you use to make that manifold) and mandrel bend it instead of using all the welds? Great header, great design, but I just don't have the cash. If anyone gets those before and after specs, that'd be great.
Thanks,
Bryan

 

[Team Ducktape]

Nice setup! When I made mine I decided to use 11 gauge 2" mandrel bent stainless. BTW mine cost $200 worth of material to make.......
Some work-in-progress pics here:
www.southfloridatuners.com/Garfield/upgrade_clips.htm

 

[larryd]

definitely a nice piece of work.. id really like to see some before and after dynos though.. thats alot of $$ to spend without #s to back up information

 

[FFgeoff]

Bryan K -- The reason that this manifold can not be made from just "mandrel" bending a piece of tube into this shape is that the material is so thick, it can not be bent. When these bends are made they arent "bent" in the sense that you would think. The are actually started out as sheet and the wrapped around a core and welded. If you tried to bend tubing like this it would either just break the mandrel bender or simply not bend.

Team Ducktape -- Cool project the car looks good. Out of curiosity ar eyou sure that tubing is 11 gauge? It looks to be a bit thinner. Also a 2" ID is very very large. Some velocity can be lost when going to a primary of that size and can actually harm low end and increase lag. On the other hand, depending on your setup 2" may actually work. In my experience 2" primaries work well on 440s or big block chevy's with a 5" piston but on anything smaller, 1 3/8 or 1 1/2 primaries usually are sufficient.

larryd -- a shop in central jersey just recently got an AWD dyno (ida automotive) and ill be putting a Galant vr4 with a t66 using my manifold on the dyno within the next couple of weeks. The efi system is torn up right now but everything will hopefully be up and running soon. Ill keep you posted.

 

[larryd]

but wil you be doing a before/after dyno?

 

[KenTSIII]

BM tranny in NJ just got an AWD dyno also... unless it's the same one you are referring to?

 

[94TSiAWD]

Pretty nice manifold. Looks beautiful. The money is fine if the manifold works. I'll switch to it if someone can show decent gains over the HKS Cast Manifold.

 

[Team Ducktape]

Originally posted by FFgeoff


Team Ducktape -- Cool project the car looks good. Out of curiosity ar eyou sure that tubing is 11 gauge? It looks to be a bit thinner. Also a 2" ID is very very large. Some velocity can be lost when going to a primary of that size and can actually harm low end and increase lag. On the other hand, depending on your setup 2" may actually work. In my experience 2" primaries work well on 440s or big block chevy's with a 5" piston but on anything smaller, 1 3/8 or 1 1/2 primaries usually are sufficient.

This header was designed for my turbo as should all the manifolds be when they're custom fabed. Design the manifold around the turbo, not the other way around, as for looseing velocity? And it will increase lag? I'm not sure I can agree with you on that. As far as I can see and have delt with the bigger the better, not just a sales pitch either.....

 

[BryanK]

http://www.dsm.org/archives/1997/07/19970708.txt/21.html
I'm a novice when it comes to this sort of thing, but the guy who wrote that really seems to know his ****. I'm going to have to agree with geoff here, but thats still a really nice set up ducktape. Better than anything I could afford anyways....
Bryan

 

[CyberEye]

If only I had the money

 

[FFgeoff]

there will be no before/after dyno as it makes no sense. The car is going from a 16g with an s-afc to a t66 with a standalone. No real comparison there. The dyno is at ida automotive, a nationally regarded and hardcore hotrod/street rod fabrication facility.

http://www.idaautomotive.com/

I will not be able to do a direct comparison to the HKS manifold. I do not possess an hks manifold nor do i have the time or wherewithal to set a car up. In my spare time i am either working on the ecko civic or my personal car, but lately i havent done either. Sorry if this is a disappointment to you, but with all other variables being held equal i have a honda customer changing only the manifold this coming week and the dyno results will be posted. Same turbo same fuel mgt etc.

Team Ducktape -- i do realize what you are doing but some brief and very basic math. 1) PV=mRT pressure * volume = m*r* temp. This simply means that if you increase the volume, the pressure inside the cylinders will drop. I personally prefer to have high pressure pulses. Secondly p1v1=p2v2 This simply means that the exhaust as it leaves the head at volume 1 will increase in pressure if volume 2 is smaller than volume 1 or increase if vice-versa.

Now all im geting at is simply, increase volume and pressures (velocities) fall. I realize you feel that a 2" primary may be the ideal size for you, but from my experience that is a bit large. On the honda i work on, we are spinning a y2k turbo using 1 1/2" primaries. The y2k turbo is the BIGGEST turbo turbonetics uses. I can assure you the car does not choke on the top end. If you saw the dyno plot you would surely agree. Secondly, at maxrev motorsports, where I work in arizona, our shop supra is currently the most powerful street supra in the west. It is owned by Saad Saad (if you guys go to supraforums or read turbo/scc you probably have heard of him) and made 987 at the wheels, no nitrous. This turbo manifold utilized 1 3/8" primaries and made more power EVERYWHERE than when using 1 1/2" primaries. This is a twin turbo setup with two very big turbos. What i have found by playing with many different setups is that by keeping the primary diameter identical to the port diameter at the exit of the head, the higher volocities can also equate to elevated temperatures (retains heat better due to less dissipation) and is a very beneficial thing.

When you say "As far as I can see and have delt with the bigger the better, not just a sales pitch either....." what are your experiences exactly? I would love to hear them.

Bryan -- cool link. Ill get you some more concrete info on heat transfer and fluid dynamics if youd like. i just finished a roll cage and am exhausted. I hate cages. Sorry i make my posts so long, i like posting on this board

 

[larryd]

FFgeoff .. id be glad to do a before/after dyno for you if you sent me one free of charge .. never hurts to try right..

 

[KenTSIII]

I don't know... but I'm pretty sure that you have to have a running car before you can dyno it P

 

[larryd]

soon my friend, soon

 

[Team Ducktape]

Yes I understand what you are saying., but under boost will also have to be factored in to your math. And even in the link someone posted it talks of boost being a factor.
"Note that this does NOT apply to turbos under boost, nor does it apply
to the pipe(s) after the header collector.

. . I really wasn't talking any particular boost settings but I would expect to be running more than 25psi to really get these big turbos to work like they should, and to be as efficient as they should. So with that in mind I really don't think 2" is way off. Yes more pressure may be desirable in some (street applications), but that pressuare is increased with the amount of boost and your cams, fuel supply timing, ect,ect. But then again the pressure really doesn't matter if the exhaust gasses are flowingas fast as they can. Like I said I have done/used/made three different style of headers, one like the one I have on the car and one that "swings" towards the passenger-side, and one bought. Under large amounts of boost, cams, big turbo, all make for larger "tubes". Now on this last setup the tubes are all equal lenght, we'll see if that makes a difference. Now remember I'm talking of the 4g63, that's the engine that I have my experience from. And that is the engine I'm refering to.

 

[FFgeoff]

i would send you a manifold to dyno with, under one condition. If it makes power, you buy it, if it doesnt make power, send it back free of charge. I think we both know that means youll be buying the manifold.

ducktape -- we consider 25 psi medium boost. Its not really my place to disclose setup details, but 25 psi is for 1st gear and launch. We boost significantly higher than that. I hear your point, but i do disagree with it. If you think that your cam selection is able to create enough flow to not make a difference in a 1.5" pipe, then you need to understand choke flow past a valve. A good site to visit for some basic head info woul dbe www.alaniztechnologies.com He is a very good heard porter in CA and really knows his stuff. Air can only move so far and so fast until it reaches its physical limits, and there is no way to push air supersonic past a valve, it cant happen.

"Under large amounts of boost, cams, big turbo, all make for larger "tubes". " i dont follow what you mean there?

I dont mean to be rude in anyway i enjoy this discussion very very much. However i dont think that a 4g63 is much different from any other engine. All engines are bound by the same laws of physics and all engines will respond fairly similarly to certian inputs. I feel that 2" primary is unusually large and you are the first person i knwo of who feels that a 2" primary would give the best performance.

If you want huge top end a poor bottom end, the general way to acheive this is to use the traditional 1 3/8- 1 1/2" primary and vary the a/r on the exaust housing. By doing this you keep the gas velocities high, and modulate the rpm band with the size of the exh housing.

one VERY basic (but good) way to design the runners is to take the cross section of say a 2" ID tube. the cross sectional area is Pi*R^2, The radius is 1" therefore the area is 3.14 square inches. This x 4 is 12.5 square inches. Now the inlet to a t3 turbo is 2.25 x 1.75. This makes for a 4 square inch area. Because these exhaust gasses are in pulses you want keep the flange area clsoe to the total cross sectional area. This ensures constant, which are not changing much. This makes it so that as the pulses join they will remain a constant velocity and lose very little energy. When using a t4 flange whos size is 3 x 2 = 6 square inches, the collector needs to be bigger to ensure that the opening is able to collect all of the available gasses. These turbos are going to be hungrier for more air and as a result, they require a larger collector. The total cross sectional area of the 1.5" tubes still has yet to become a restriction as their total cross sectional area is 7.065 square inches, but it is very close to being a constant.


What am i getting at with all of this? The 2" primaries net an area between the 4 runners of 12.5" That is huge, especially considering they all get bottle-necked down to a 4 square inch area on a t3 or a 6 square inch area on a t4. If a 1.5" runner is used then the collector it would have gone from 7" to 6", very tolerable.

On a DSM nothing smaller than a 1.5" runner can be used becuase the ports are so unusually large. Thanks for reading...

 

[trooth]

Originally posted by FFgeoff
i would send you a manifold to dyno with, under one condition. If it makes power, you buy it, if it doesnt make power, send it back free of charge. I think we both know that means youll be buying the manifold.

If Larry does not take you up on this, I will. You can contact me at the information below.

[email protected]

 

[larryd]

ill pass, not becuase I dont think its a good product but in all honesty I dont have the $$ to buy the product right now regardless.. Trooth is a good friend of mine though and Im sure he would be a good canidate for this..

 

[trooth]

Geoff, you still out there?

 

[trooth]

Ok bro... Benefit of the doubt because it was a holiday weekend. Anybody know this guys where-abouts? Not flaming, but I stepped up to dyno test his product and he disappears? :scratches head:

 

[FFgeoff]

hey whats up.. sorry ive been away, prepping for the IDRC event this weekend proved to be quite a handful -- my car ran but i had significant fuel mgt issues causing a lot of a lot of stress. The ecko car had even worse complications than myself and it ended up being a rough weekend for a number of people... thats racing.

Anyway im back, so sorry if i did not get to your emails/posts recently ill tend to them now.

trooth check your mail, we can go over details.