Getting ready to assemble.

[5150DSM]

Well, after 3 years I finally get to build my beast.
The stocker has 115,00k on it and has been abused with just about every bolt-on I could aquire. I ran a best of 12.4 @ 108 on the 14B still on the car and I still DD my car and occasionly deliver pizza as well. However, my last compression check showed 100psi in a couple of cylinders and I burn, leak and blow oil like nobody's business. My gas milage sucks and things are just plain falling apart. So...
I picked up another 6 bolt block and sent it of for some machine shop love. Hot-tanked, magnafluxed and thermal cleaned, bored 0.020" over and decked to a mirror finish. Also had some ARP's installed for insurance.
I then purchased my bottom end from Slowboy.(Thanks Mike and Candy) Wiseco's @ 9.0:1on Scat rods w/ARP 2000's. ACL main and rod bearings, Mitsu MLS head gasket, BSEK and of course a full gasket set, including timing belt and tensioner(s). I already have a "stage II" head and a Shep prepped tranny to mate everything up; footwork and tuning are done as per my profile, so now I just need a turbo.

I'm looking to get around 550-600 from the turbo and I will probably spray another 100 on the track. Right now I'm looking at the SCM5252E or the SCM6152E or maybe the SCM6031E. They are all in the same price range and all will get me where I want to be but my question is, which will do it most efficiently? None are BB and I understand they will be somewhat laggy, but how laggy and is the difference in spool times vastly different between the turbo's?
Thanks for any input you guys can offer. I'm going big but I want to make the right moves the 1st time around.
Aloha

 

[95tsiawd6blt]

dont expect to get anywhere near 550-600 on either turbo on just boost. expect about 475whp on the 5252 on race gas about 30psi, and maybe a few more horse on the 6152. both are great turbos though.

 

[5150DSM]

Back from the dead...

Had to postpone my build a little bit while we finished up with some issues on the RB25/240 swap. (Up and running now!) So I finally got to start on my motor tonight. Re-inspected the block and sprayed and wiped it down. Thouroughly cleaned the crankshaft, unwrapped my new ACL's and got started assembling.(Torco assembly lube rocks!) Everything checked out on the mains, clearances are good, thrust alignment is done, endplay is in spec, crank turns freely, shit I'm a happy camper.
Tomorrow, I plan to do the BSE and install the oil pump. Also, assemble the piston/rod combo, gap the rings and slide the slugs in.

I'll probably seal everything and button up the block this weekend and do the swap next weekend. Cams should be here in time and the new(used) manifold as well so everything should go right back together. I still can't decide on a turbo.

I'm looking to get 500-600awhp from the turbo, would like it to spool before 4K, be pump gas friendly, come in a Mitsu housing, be internally gated(asking too much, I know)and not cost me my first-born. I realize that there are several turbo's that are suitable but my lack of experience with any of them leaves me reluctant to make a decision based on the "paper specs". I am hoping some real world experiences will help me decide.
Thanks in advance. Aloha!

 

[Maglin]

I'm looking to get 500-600awhp from the turbo, would like it to spool before 4K, be pump gas friendly, come in a Mitsu housing, be internally gated(asking too much, I know)and not cost me my first-born. I realize that there are several turbo's that are suitable but my lack of experience with any of them leaves me reluctant to make a decision based on the "paper specs".

It's apparent you have not done your homework what so ever. To attain 500-600 WHP from any turbo and spool before 4,000 RPM isn't going to happen. So just get that out of your head. And doing it on a mitsu housing on top of that. Again not going to happen. For your power goals you are going to be looking at either a T3/T4 or a full T4 TH. Going to need a serious turbo as well. And lot of boost. Be looking to run around 35-40 PSI. You can attain this on a GT-35R. But you will need a stand alone and money for dyno time to get their.

I'm guessing that you just want a super fast car on the cheap. I wouldn't go their. You might want to start with a SCM61 for your goals. Spool with be in the 4-4.5K range and you can put down 450 HP fairly easily. Again you are going to want some form of engine management. Start small and learn then go bigger. If you just jump into a crazy GT42 territory you will most likely just blow up your motor trying to tune it.

You should look at the amount of cars here that are putting out 500+ HP. Their isn't many. It's not easy and it does cost money. Sure you could build something that will make one or 2 passes at that level with nitrous but that would be about it. Also you are going to want to O-Ring your block or head for that kind of power output. My power goals are similar to yours except I definitely don't want to spool before 4K. I'm looking to spool before 7.5K @ 45 PSI. I'm looking for 600+ on the turbo.

Don't expect to much help. Do some reading and you'll find out some stuff and then you'll have to figure out what will work for you.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm looking to get 500-600awhp from the turbo, would like it to spool before 4K, be pump gas friendly, come in a Mitsu housing, be internally gated(asking too much, I know)and not cost me my first-born. I realize that there are several turbo's that are suitable but my lack of experience with any of them leaves me reluctant to make a decision based on the "paper specs". I am hoping some real world experiences will help me decide.
Thanks in advance. Aloha!

Cams, SMIM, tubular header. None of these have been mentioned. porting the head and not installing these is a waste.

Yea, listen to maglin. Nevermind compressor efficiency, 600whp is not pump gas friendly . Considering wanting a mitsu housing, research on the seldom discussed 25G. Talk to FP. They'll probably steer you away from it. But I've heard they seam to function OK internally gated. You will have lag But probably be under 5K. Still, does anyone run a 600whp internally gated 2.0?

I've heard good about the SCM61, also. I'm a turblownetics guy so I can tell you that any 60-1 or bigger compressor (use an e cover) coupled to a o or p trim turbine will be capable. Perhaps a t3 stage 5 if you pick a larger A/R housing. There's a significant difference between 500 and 600 hp. I've seen a t3 stage 5 turbine flow enough for 500 whp on pump gas.

Consider this, if you want pump gas and high hp. You'll HAVE to settle w/ a slow spool. A bigger hot side yields a higher overall VE, thus more hp per psi. Boost levels maglin has suggested is just not pump gas friendly. Compressor wheels have nothing to do w/ 'pump gas friendlyness' at this point.

I suggest water injection. Suppressing Knock with Water Injection

 

[5150DSM]

Maglin, thanks for the lesson. That's exactly what I was talking about, real world. I have been doing tons of research but all the info I have is on paper. For example... The SCM series turbo's I was looking at are rated at 585-630hp, I thought that's what they would put out. Also, Dejon lists the SCM3431 at 550hp and spool by 3600... internally gated and in a Mitsu housing.
I have been basing the feasability of my goals on the info I have been getting from different vendors, I'm not just throwing numbers around because they sound cool. I'm not some broke ricer with a dream either. I have several thousand dollars in my car already and have done all the work myself, including building the current motor and will continue to invest my time, money and hopefully increasing knowledge to achieve my goals.

Thanks for sending me in a better direction, I'll start looking more into what actual people are getting from different turbo set-ups instead of what vendors rate them at.
Aloha

 

[dsm-onster]

Maglin, thanks for the lesson. That's exactly what I was talking about, real world. I have been doing tons of research but all the info I have is on paper. For example... The SCM series turbo's I was looking at are rated at 585-630hp, I thought that's what they would put out. Also, Dejon lists the SCM3431 at 550hp and spool by 3600... internally gated and in a Mitsu housing.
I have been basing the feasability of my goals on the info I have been getting from different vendors, I'm not just throwing numbers around because they sound cool. I'm not some broke ricer with a dream either. I have several thousand dollars in my car already and have done all the work myself, including building the current motor and will continue to invest my time, money and hopefully increasing knowledge to achieve my goals.

Thanks for sending me in a better direction, I'll start looking more into what actual people are getting from different turbo set-ups instead of what vendors rate them at.
Aloha

99.9% of the vendors will tell you that the rated hp number is what the compressor will flow. not the turbine.

 

[5150DSM]

Thanks Dsm-Monster. I have cams and a tubular on the way, no SMIM, yet.
I should have been more clear, I never thought to get 600hp from any turbo on pump gas, that is a pure race gas/nitrous goal, I just want pump friendliness so I can keep the car on the street at a decent power level. Haven't looked at the 25G but I will.

 

[dsm-onster]

Thanks Dsm-Monster. I have cams and a tubular on the way, no SMIM, yet.
I should have been more clear, I never thought to get 600hp from any turbo on pump gas, that is a pure race gas/nitrous goal, I just want pump friendliness so I can keep the car on the street at a decent power level. Haven't looked at the 25G but I will.

AHH! this makes a big difference. I run my 60-1 on the street as a daily driver w/ 93 octane. It's all in your tune here. You can still make good power w/ good flow and *decent* boost levels for the street. Surely over 450 whp. Considering that you don't want to drive off the track or out of the dyno at 600whp and go to your local gas station, i'd go for something like the scm61 w/ a big wheel. I would just suck up the spool time and deal w/ it . I would sacrifice my 3900 rpm spool time for a better flowing turbine wheel.

What cams are you installing? A stroker can handle the duration and idle fine. But you'll need that higher duration and likely a higher idle. This depends on ramp rate and duration. A higher ramp rate would yield a lower capable idle. but ofcourse you have to pay for the big springs. A set of good dual springs would likely be best anyway as any cam that will give you your goal needs to be revved to see good results. Don't be surprised if you do 9K pulls on the dyno .

Any large plenum SMIM that is not prone to cracking under high boost should be fine. about 4-6 inches runner length for a 1g head port area is likely fine (depending on your intake cam duration). JM Fabrications race manifold is my choice. They pressure test their manifolds to 125 psi before shipping!

 

[LaN-]

i haven't read all the replys so if this has already been said i'm sorry.

550hp on that turbo is 550hp at the crank. Those numbers come off PTE's website. Back when i was looking at a PTE turbo, i emailed them and said all the turbos are rated at flywheel HP, not wheel.

 

[dsm-onster]

i haven't read all the replys so if this has already been said i'm sorry.

550hp on that turbo is 550hp at the crank. Those numbers come off PTE's website. Back when i was looking at a PTE turbo, i emailed them and said all the turbos are rated at flywheel HP, not wheel.

Thank you! this is good for the original poster to know. And every other PTE customer or potential customer.

Keep in mind tha t the percentage of drive train loss goes down as hp levels go up. In other words, a typical drive train may likely only draw 10% or less of the total hp at the crank at 600+ hp. Not but so much energy is needed to rotate the mass off the driveline parts and that does not go up just because more horsepower is applied. And not but so much heat is generated either.

 

[Maglin]

It would be nice for Vendors to just put the compressor flow max rating instead of crank HP numbers to make a turbo seem better than it is. Since you are going with an exhaust manifold I hope you get a T3 until with an external waste gate. You don't want to deal with internal WG's. PITA especially at high power levels.

Yes look around at what others have done. A lot of the high HP cars in the dyno database don't have really anything listed for mods. Some people just don't want to let everyone know what parts they are running. Personally I don't car. I just won't give out my tuning data. JMFab is a great place to get an intake. I think DSM's have made Jim a lot of money. I remember when he built his first one on here. Anyways great product and a fantastic price. If I had to choose another intake manifold I would get the Forester but those are almost 3x the price of the JMFab manifold.

Just know this. You are going to need fuel and lots of it. Going to need something better than a AFC to tune with. Personally if you really do want to put down the power levels you mentioned I would go with a stand alone. AEM, Motec, Autech, MegaSquirt ect. I wouldn't bother with DSMLink at those power levels. Way more options for you with a standalone. Personally with you wanting to run nitrous I would also run a dry 100-200 shoot of nitrous and use stagged injection and just use the standalone to inject the extra fuel upon nitrous activation. Just makes for a better tune on nitrous. Also going to need a good flowing exhaust. 3" for sure at the minimum.

 

[5150DSM]

Thanks everyone for the helpful replies.

As for cams, I had decided on the BC stage 2, they seem to have what I need; it's possible that the stage 3's would be more suitable but I wonder about low rpm drivability. I understand that engine management beyond my MAFT and SAFC is necessary and have been thinking AEM or possibly MoTec.(My neighbor runs motec in his Volvo's and can't get enough.) I'm also having trouble deciding whether I should use a single set of large injectors, 1200+cc or if I should stage a second set, which will affect my intake manifold choice.

Maglin, you reccomend T4, are the Mitsu housings that restrictive?
Aloha

 

[paper_clip_boy]

Mitsu housings are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to flow.

Depending on turbo selection, a Divided T3 or Divided T4 is what you want. Make sure to purchase a Divided manifold too.

The divided manifolds are designed to use the cylinders pulse to help spool up the turbo even quicker. Runners are designed to gather cylinder 1 and 4 the 2 and 3. If you understand the Twin Scroll Technology that the New Evo's are using, thats what Divided is. Much better driveability especially on a large turbo.

Look at the runner design and where they go on this manifold and you'll understand.
http://store.straightlinespecialties.com//product_info.php?cPath=30_97&products_id=244

My personal Opinion is to go with a GT35R, Still and very streetable turbo and yet it can make tremendous power on Race and pump gas. Im still looking into the new GTK Series turbo's that Turbonetics has put out as these are supposed to be GT killers against Garrett, but info is still lacking and price has been confirmed to be much higher than a Garrett GT turbo.

For you, Divided .78 A/R Turbine Housing GT35R. As long as you have the divided Manifold to go along with it, You'll be making some awesome street power.