Fuelab afpr

[ishnish]

Hey guys, I am now just starting to make some money and I'm really looking into buying some supporting mods for my car to boost. I want to get an afpr by fuelab I just don't know which one to get. I see there is a 515 series, 525, 535, 545, and a 565 series. Exactly what would make the 565 better than a 515? I don't really know much about the subject so I decided to ask on here. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[ishnish]

if your not looking into link e85 is going to be hard to run from what I have read anyways, and if your going with bigger injectors you really need a tuning software imho. I got my car in april and I had link by july, I don't have alot of mods yet but I looked at it as something I knew I would need and I would rather learn to tune before I put all kinds of money into my car and chance messing it up. getting your ecu flashed would be fine but as everyone here knows we are always on the chase for more hp. so why not get something you can constantly make adjustments with then have something set in stone.

jcarmichael, the reason I wanted to go ahead and not do dsmlink is because I got a 99 gsx and I read around that it would be much cheaper to go with EcuFlash and I'd still have the same benefits as dsmlink. Of course, I could possibly be wrong since I haven't looked into it enough. But I mean at a quarter of the price, why not go ahead with that option? Especially since I have a 99. Might as well take advantage of it.. I've heard of Ceddy Mods as well I just haven't looked into them further enough. I definitely plan on getting this before I install or mod my car though. It's not like I'm just gonna slap all these parts in and call it a day .

Personally, Most people I know running something as big as a 1250 or larger injector have had to run a dual injector system. One for idle and low end, and a second set to pick up on the top end. Mainly because they have a problem getting the duty cycle low enough at idle to properly idle the car. But that is not going to be done with something like link. You would need a standalone, at the very least an AFC to control a second set of injectors. And that gets costly. But your goals should be able to be reached with some 1200cc injectors and some E85 for fuel. The FPR you will need to do some research on. Call the manufacturer and ask them if it can handle E85. Most of them say in the description what fuels they can handle tho. Just make sure it has a 1:1 ratio for a boosted application.

This I did not know. This is exactly why I asked if I should (or could) go bigger on the injectors. All because I heard about idle issues with our cars on such large ones. I want to be able to run both e85 and pump gas though. I was told that I would be able to do that somehow. I don't mean as in just filling up with pump gas after I'm low on e85 or something though. More so with a tune that let's me switch between the two. I'll check more into my fpr for sure. Thanks man. Now I'm trying to just find out how large on injectors I can go without having to worry about this costly dual injector system.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

Well i can almost say for certain that you would need a standalone ECU for that. The stock ECU just does not have the outputs to control 2 different fuel systems. When I did my dual setup, it was on a twin turbo V8 application. Never got a good dyno on it, but it made over 1200whp in a small block 5.9L magnum V8. Never was able to keep it planted to the dyno to get an accurate read at full boost. 1159rwhp was made at 18psi however in a compound remote mounted turbo setup with a dual injector setup.

There is a company out there that is currently doing dual fuel systems in big hp vehicles to keep them streetable, I just dont remember their name. I saw some of their work on youtube. Running a dual system is great if you have deep enough pockets, but beware, its not cheap.

Do a lot of research on the topics of dual fuel systems if you plan to attempt that route. They are not easy, and are a complete pain in the A to get right. But when you get them right, they sing a song u will never forget. Think of it like meth injection on steroids. And in most places you can get E85 at your local gas station, where meth is not so readily available.

 

[snowborder714]

CrawlinZX14, please do not post incorrect info. PLENTY of people are running large injectors on these cars using link, a flashable ECU, or a custom burned EPROM chip. So I'm guessing you "knowledge" around this topic is not in regards to DSM's. Or the people you know are incompetent.

Secondly, you can run more than 4 injectors with link, although it requires a little add-on. I've seen people control 8-10 injectors, so it is possible without a standalone.


1000cc injectors on pump is the same as 670cc injectors on E85. According to this link, 660cc injectors at 80% IDC can support 37.90 lbs/min of airflow. This will not safely support a 16g at 20+ psi. If you jump up to 1150cc injectors (771cc on E85), you can safely support ~44 lbs/min, which is enough for a 16g.

I would recommend FIC 1150's if you don't plan on going bigger than a 16g. If you do, then I would skip the next couple sizes and jump up to 2150's. They will provide you the best idle/cruise, as everything else that's in between is fairly tough to dial in. This will get easier with some stuff ECMTuning is working on, but I'm not sure when it will be released.

 

[Calan]

Personally, Most people I know running something as big as a 1250 or larger injector have had to run a dual injector system. One for idle and low end, and a second set to pick up on the top end. Mainly because they have a problem getting the duty cycle low enough at idle to properly idle the car. But that is not going to be done with something like link. You would need a standalone, at the very least an AFC to control a second set of injectors. And that gets costly. But your goals should be able to be reached with some 1200cc injectors and some E85 for fuel. The FPR you will need to do some research on. Call the manufacturer and ask them if it can handle E85. Most of them say in the description what fuels they can handle tho. Just make sure it has a 1:1 ratio for a boosted application.

MANY people are running much bigger injectors (up to 2150's) on ECMLink with no issues at all. The individual deadtime adjustment in V3, along with having the injectors properly characterized makes it a non-issue for most people nowadays.

You can also control a dual-rail setup if you really need to with Link, although it takes a little extra effort.

EDIT:

Freakin' ninja mods.

 

[OLDGREG]

+1 I agree with calan. People do run injectors that big but its really unnecessary unless u have some high HP beast.

 

[Ludachris]

What about 1250s? If given the opportunity, I will push further than 500. I just wanna be future proof and not have to invest in larger injectors later. I don't mind the extra wait. I'm thinking of 1250s because I hear 1650s give people problems at idle. This I'm not sure of though.

I see you're in CA. The best bet here in our lovely state is to get the smallest injectors needed to safely flow the amount of fuel needed. Overkill huge injectors could make it tough to pass emissions when it comes to tuning. So before you go overboard on injector size, keep that in mind. If you have a way of getting out of emissions testing, disregard this. This advice came straight from Lucas English.

 

[ishnish]

CrawlinZX14, please do not post incorrect info. PLENTY of people are running large injectors on these cars using link, a flashable ECU, or a custom burned EPROM chip. So I'm guessing you "knowledge" around this topic is not in regards to DSM's. Or the people you know are incompetent.

Secondly, you can run more than 4 injectors with link, although it requires a little add-on. I've seen people control 8-10 injectors, so it is possible without a standalone.


1000cc injectors on pump is the same as 670cc injectors on E85. According to this link, 660cc injectors at 80% IDC can support 37.90 lbs/min of airflow. This will not safely support a 16g at 20+ psi. If you jump up to 1150cc injectors (771cc on E85), you can safely support ~44 lbs/min, which is enough for a 16g.

I would recommend FIC 1150's if you don't plan on going bigger than a 16g. If you do, then I would skip the next couple sizes and jump up to 2150's. They will provide you the best idle/cruise, as everything else that's in between is fairly tough to dial in. This will get easier with some stuff ECMTuning is working on, but I'm not sure when it will be released.

Thank you snowborder this has been a breath of fresh air! I had so many questions going on in my head regarding all of this after I was told about dual setups.

I do plan to go bigger than a 16g in the future. I just wanna have a little fun with this one before I do though. I was recommended 2150's on another thread. The whole idle issues is what scared me though. But wow thank you so much for the info.

I see you're in CA. The best bet here in our lovely state is to get the smallest injectors needed to safely flow the amount of fuel needed. Overkill huge injectors could make it tough to pass emissions when it comes to tuning. So before you go overboard on injector size, keep that in mind. If you have a way of getting out of emissions testing, disregard this. This advice came straight from Lucas English.

Lol I totally feel you on that one my friend. I'm not worried about emissions though and now that my dad just got a Datsun 210, that will probably be my daily driver everything is working out really well so far to account for the downtime of my car.

And just to let everyone know, I am definitely doing some more research on this topic before I actually buy what I need. This is exactly what this thread was for. I greatly appreciate all your responses. It's nice to see this thread getting somewhere!

Two more things, snowborder recommended FIC. I was actually looking into Injector Dynamics' injectors. I an't determine which is the best but I've heard nothing but good things from Injector Dynamics so far. Also, all this talk about link but can anyone fill me in on ECUflash? Cause that would definitely save me a lot of money and I heard it could do basically everything link can do. It would definitely save me a lot of money if this is true.

 

[snowborder714]

I've only heard of people running the ID 2000's. If they offer something smaller than that for our cars, they aren't very common.

Try sending knochgoon24 and asking him to come weigh in on this thread as he uses that to tune.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

MANY people are running much bigger injectors (up to 2150's) on ECMLink with no issues at all. The individual deadtime adjustment in V3, along with having the injectors properly characterized makes it a non-issue for most people nowadays.

You can also control a dual-rail setup if you really need to with Link, although it takes a little extra effort.

EDIT:

Freakin' ninja mods.

Please note, both of you are talking about running dual rails only. Nothing about two completely different fuel systems. And fuels for that matter. Although I have never worked with link and really know very little about it, I have worked extensively with standalones, so I know they are fully capable. Some more than others. Im not trying to knock link or anything like that, but without modifying your ECU, how would you plan to run a second set of injectors on a completely different fuel only during certain loads? I dont see how I have stated any misinformation, I stated clearly from my experience's those are problems, and how I rectified the situation. Nothing more.

My last DSM I had was back in the late 90's and if I remember right, link was a new thing and nothing near what it is now. MAF-T pro's were more widely used then. But I will return back to my work and let everyone else comment.

OP, good luck on your build, I hope it all works out as you plan.

 

[ishnish]

My last DSM I had was back in the late 90's and if I remember right, link was a new thing and nothing near what it is now. MAF-T pro's were more widely used then. But I will return back to my work and let everyone else comment.

OP, good luck on your build, I hope it all works out as you plan.

CrawlinZX14, no harm done I appreciate you even taking the time out to enlighten me and fill in on this. I never disregarded your info so I hope you don't think I did. I'm still looking into injectors since I've got other things on my list as well. and I've definitely taken what you wrote into consideration. I also know that a lot of the users who replied to my thread have tons of experience with DSMs and tuning them so knowing that I could run large injectors was a ton of relief. Anyways, thank you I hope everything goes as planned as well.

I've only heard of people running the ID 2000's. If they offer something smaller than that for our cars, they aren't very common.

Try sending knochgoon24 and asking him to come weigh in on this thread as he uses that to tune.

Thanks man! I PM'd him I hope he joins us soon

 

[snowborder714]

Im not trying to knock link or anything like that, but without modifying your ECU, how would you plan to run a second set of injectors on a completely different fuel only during certain loads?

Look on this page for Dual-bank Injectors for more info.
v3summary [ECMTuning - wiki]

As for running a different fuel through them (vs. the fuel run through the main 4 injectors), I would guess you could utilize a secondary fuel map in ECMlink to control that, but I'm not positive. I don't think I've ever seen someone run 2 different fuels.

In the end, ECMlink has a lot of capabilities that full standalone systems do, and is a much stronger platform than the average piggyback.

 

[clipto]

The dual rail talk is hurting my brain.In my opinion there should not be a reason for dual injector setup.Eather you don't know how to tune or your setup is just wack.

 

[ishnish]

Look on this page for Dual-bank Injectors for more info.
v3summary [ECMTuning - wiki]

As for running a different fuel through them (vs. the fuel run through the main 4 injectors), I would guess you could utilize a secondary fuel map in ECMlink to control that, but I'm not positive. I don't think I've ever seen someone run 2 different fuels.

In the end, ECMlink has a lot of capabilities that full standalone systems do, and is a much stronger platform than the average piggyback.

I thought I heard somewhere that you can have 2 different setups with link to help switch back and fourth from pump gas to e85.

Thank you for the link. I'm still hoping that knochgoon24 chimes in on this thread.

 

[snowborder714]

Yup, and that's just as easy as making 2 different tunes and loading one when you put pump in and the other when you put E85 in.

 

[ishnish]

That's the answer I needed. Although I don't know if you were being sarcastic with it being "easy" . Which is my next question: Is it easy to load up the tunes? As in, does it take very long or is it a quick process?

 

[snowborder714]

Very quick process. Open tune, click a couple buttons, you're good to go.

The most time consuming process (obviously) is doing the tuning.

 

[ishnish]

Very nice.. Yeah that definitely makes sense . So I'm good with just one pair of injectors then I'm guessing

 

[91stocker]

So I'm good with just one SET of injectors then I'm guessing

O most definitely.

 

[ishnish]

BTW. About the fpr I have, tt says "Gasoline, diesel, methanol, and ethanol fuel compatible" so I'm also guessing that I can run e85 with this I just don't know abotu 2150cc injectors with it.

O most definitely.

Thank you for the response stocker

 

[91stocker]

BTW. About the fpr I have, tt says "Gasoline, diesel, methanol, and ethanol fuel compatible" so I'm also guessing that I can run e85 with this I just don't know abotu 2150cc injectors with it.

The basic "515" kit is fine and I didnt read through all the non sense, but who talked you into 2150's for a 16g? Thats about double the injector you need .

The injector list shows 1600's support 91lbs/min on pump or race gas or 63.7lbs/min on e85. Still way overkill for a 16g.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/393264-x-hp-fuel-injectors.html

 

[ishnish]

Suggestions of bumping up to 2150s are on the first page I think I gues because of idle issues. Also, I don't plan to run the 16g forever and that's another reason. Definitely plan on going bigger in the future (turbo I mean).

 

[91stocker]

Suggestions of bumping up to 2150s are on the first page I think I gues because of idle issues. Also, I don't plan to run the 16g forever and that's another reason. Definitely plan on going bigger in the future (turbo I mean).

With the new ball and seat style injectors paired with link, i wouldn't worry about idle issues. And i dont know if you've looked at the prices yet but a set of 2150's run about $280 more then 1600's new. $780 vs $485.

Plus 1600's will support more then your stock bottom end will. Just something to think about.

 

[ishnish]

With the new ball and seat style injectors paired with link, i wouldn't worry about idle issues. And i dont know if you've looked at the prices yet but a set of 2150's run about $280 more then 1600's new. $780 vs $485.

Plus 1600's will support more then your stock bottom end will. Just something to think about.

Are you positive? About the whole ball and seat style injectors paired with link? Then again, I don't plan on running link because of my 99. I still have yet to find out about ECUflash vs DSMlink. Yes I'm aware of the price difference.

As for the stock bottom end. I plan on rebuilding that as well. All slow progress. But if 1600's are enough, then I'd definitely not wanna go overkill with injectors. Still thinking about it as I do more research. 2150's sound nice though

 

[knochgoon24]

I'm a little late to the party, but here's my input.

The 98/99 ecu won't do everything that ECMLink will. The ones saying this are overgeneralizing.

There are guys running 2150's on the 98/99, and they say they run fine. There's the same deadtime and injector size compensations in the 98/99 software as ECMLink, but there isn't the individual injector compensation that ECMLink has.

I'm only running 680cc injectors and they were fairly easy to dial in.

If you're considering using the 98/99 ecu, I suggest you download ECUFlash and the Ceddymods pack. The pack includes the file that gets flashed to the ecu and a file that lets ECUFlash know how to interpret it. Look at the features that you can change and see if this will do what you want. No one has heard from Ceddy (the main 98/99 ecu guru) so don't hold you breath for an update if you don't see a feature.

 

[CrawlinZX14]

The dual rail talk is hurting my brain.In my opinion there should not be a reason for dual injector setup.Eather you don't know how to tune or your setup is just wack.

Have you ever made a vehicle over 1200whp? And tried to make it streetable? This is where dual rails come in handy.

Dual fuels are great however. Many people use water or meth injection to cool their engine temps down, yet you could just as easily run say E85 on a secondary fuel system. Now you will have tons of extra fuel, and power potential.

Personally I used a dual system on my dakota. Primary was Seimens 880cc injectors for street use. The motor was a mopar R3 block based on a 360ci small block. Bored and stroked out to 427 CI. bored .128 over. It was siamese bored which allowed me to bore it that large. Max was .150 over. I ran 8.5:1 CR on it and made over 700rwhp on motor alone. It had a compound turbo setup remote mounted where the bed of the truck should have been. Cut out the floor and mounted the turbo's up higher. at 12psi it made over 1100whp. tried for 30psi, but could not get it to hook on slicks. Truck scared me and I sold it. New owner back halfed the truck and made over 1500rwhp.

the 880's were for street use and no boost. when boost kicked in, a set of 1850cc injectors would kick in with E85. Those were only for boost and allowed some fun power to be made. was never able to get the truck dialed in above 12 psi cause I could not get it to stay hooked up to log or anything. I used an AEM standalone for my tuning. I used the dual injector setup to give the truck some street manners and keep from having light switch power. The second set of injectors however were simply setup for all or nothing.