Front camber adjustment?

[Arod]

I took my 90 TSI to the alignment shop because it was wearing the tires on the inside and pulling to the left pretty bad. It was pulling under regular driving so its not the brakes.

So they got the rear adjusted perfect however the front camber is out of spec. The left front is out ~-.25deg and the right front is at ~-1.25deg. This he says is why it pulls to the left which seems right. He says that he can "rework" the front struts to get the camber back within specs but just exactly what can you do to correct the camber. Is the only thing to get adjustable ball joints? This may be what he ment. So is the camber being out of spec the reason why the car pulls to the left? And what ways can you adjust the front camber?

Thanks, Aaron

 

[stirpicult]

I took my 90 TSI to the alignment shop because it was wearing the tires on the inside and pulling to the left pretty bad. It was pulling under regular driving so its not the brakes.

So they got the rear adjusted perfect however the front camber is out of spec. The left front is out ~-.25deg and the right front is at ~-1.25deg. This he says is why it pulls to the left which seems right. He says that he can "rework" the front struts to get the camber back within specs but just exactly what can you do to correct the camber. Is the only thing to get adjustable ball joints? This may be what he ment. So is the camber being out of spec the reason why the car pulls to the left? And what ways can you adjust the front camber?

Thanks, Aaron

i don't see how the camber being out of spec would make the car pull. camber is really identical, and if toe is even, then the camber wont matter. my camber is off .7 degrees side to side, and it doesn't pull at all. all other things equal, toe with both tires going to one side or the other will make a car pull, differing caster angles will make a car pull, but camber shouldn't matter. if you car is riding on a contact patch that is 3 inches wide or 3.3 inches wide shouldn't matter if both sides are pointed forward. toe is obviously adjustable, but caster isn't.
and most manufacturers make crash bolts, and you could probably try these. if you want to be fun, get some camber/caster plates.
i would tell him to fix the toe in the front, the rear camber and toe, and then take it out and see if it still pulls.

 

[undrboost]

i don't see how the camber being out of spec would make the car pull. camber is really identical, and if toe is even, then the camber wont matter. my camber is off .7 degrees side to side, and it doesn't pull at all. all other things equal, toe with both tires going to one side or the other will make a car pull, differing caster angles will make a car pull, but camber shouldn't matter. if you car is riding on a contact patch that is 3 inches wide or 3.3 inches wide shouldn't matter if both sides are pointed forward. toe is obviously adjustable, but caster isn't.
and most manufacturers make crash bolts, and you could probably try these. if you want to be fun, get some camber/caster plates.
i would tell him to fix the toe in the front, the rear camber and toe, and then take it out and see if it still pulls.

Im sitting here looking at your camber angles and yes that is why your car is pulling LEFT and yes thats why your tires are worn on the inside. camber and toe are the only two alignment angles that wear tires, caster does not. i dont understand why people post stuff they dont know what there talking about . all the angles can cause a pull but your main reason is your CAMBER. they make camber kits which include an adj. balljoints (upper) and i think adj. control arm bolts (upper control arm)

 

[wret]

ISo is the camber being out of spec the reason why the car pulls to the left?

Sure. It's called camber thrust.

 

[stirpicult]

yes thats why your tires are worn on the inside. camber and toe are the only two alignment angles that wear tires, caster does not. i dont understand why people post stuff they dont know what there talking about . all the angles can cause a pull but your main reason is your CAMBER. they make camber kits which include an adj. balljoints (upper) and i think adj. control arm bolts (upper control arm)

i never said caster wears tires. TOE is the culprit in accelerated inside tire wear. camber will of course only wear the inside, because less of the tire is contacting the ground, but it won't accelerate the tires wear. toe forces the tires to spin one way and go another. this increases friction, etc etc, which increases scrub. people believe that camber has a huge affect on tire wear because changes in camber angles change toe angles.
and he never posted his toe, nor has he posted that he has driven since it's been alligned, so how would he even know if it is still pulling?

here are the factory specs for a 1g:
1G AWD Front Suspension;
Camber: +0.1 degree plus or minus 0.5 degrees

that gives a car an entire degree of play. he has a degree difference, though not within factory specs. a degree should not noticably pull a car to one side.

the "reworking" of the struts the mechanic is talking about is what are called "crash bolts" which are bolts with a side taken off giving the struts side to side movement.

most people going in to get an allignment are having toe issues. a favorite of allignment shops is to say, "oh, your camber is off. we need to install such and such part which costs 30 bucks to fix it." when i got my car alligned, the mechanic said my camber was different for each side (.7 degrees) but that it didn't matter. if i am wrong in my post...sorry.

Sure. It's called camber thrust.

can you help me with this one because i looked up camber thrust and every post mentions it in relation to turns. i cannot visualize how it would affect a car traveling directly forward. i am seeing it in a turn, but not at all in a straight line.

if i posted something that was horrendously wrong, i apologize.

 

[wret]

You will hear many of us say over and over again, "camber doesn't eat tires, toe does." This isn't precisely true. Camber thrust is created anytime the wheels are not precisely perpendicular to the road. This thrust will pull the wheel in the direction it is leaning. Where there is thrust, there is friction. Where there is friction, there is wear. It is still relatively minor when compared to the wear caused by toe issues.

A certain amount of negative camber is normal in most setups. Hard turners exaggerate at the expense of some tire life. When it's balanced (both front or wheel rears the same) the thrusts cancel and you track in a straight line. When it is not balanced, as is your case, there is more thrust created on one side than the other and the car pulls.

Your right tire is leaning to the left, thus pulling to the left.

 

[stirpicult]

You will hear many of us say over and over again, "camber doesn't eat tires, toe does." This isn't precisely true. Camber thrust is created anytime the wheels are not precisely perpendicular to the road. This thrust will pull the wheel in the direction it is leaning. Where there is thrust, there is friction. Where there is friction, there is wear. It is still relatively minor when compared to the wear caused by toe issues.

A certain amount of negative camber is normal in most setups. Hard turners exaggerate at the expense of some tire life. When it's balanced (both front or wheel rears the same) the thrusts cancel and you track in a straight line. When it is not balanced, as is your case, there is more thrust created on one side than the other and the car pulls.

Your right tire is leaning to the left, thus pulling to the left.

i understand the tire wear issue. instead of getting 10k out of your tires, you get 9.5k. instead of power hitting the ground over 7 inches, its now only touching a solid 3 with a gradual raise for the other 4. that i understand, and i get it being pretty much not a big deal.
what i don't get is camber thrust with a zero toe tire.
if he has -1.25 on the right side and no allignment, then he also has toe pointing left, which would cause the care to go left as well. i can even understand a general pull left, but noticeable? i cannot see it. a degree causing a pull strong enough that he has to constantly pull it back straight? when factory specs allow for up to a degree difference? i can see it all with a larger difference in the angles, but not a degree. not a pull he would actually post about.

no one in this post has addressed his toe issues. he has not posted whether or not he drove it after the toe was zeroed. he said it was pulling and his inside tires (plural) were eaten, and then he posted with his camber angles (which are not extreme at all). -.25 of camber didn't cause his tire wear...the toe that he didn't post did.

either way (me being right or wrong), arod, get the quote. if it sounds reasonable, it probably is. get the camber back within specs.

 

[Arod]

Thanks for all the great replies!! So now let me add some information that you all asked for.

This information is from the printout he gave me.

Front toe:

Left: Right: Total:
0" -1/32" -1/16"

Front camber:
-1/4deg -1 1/2deg

Front caster:

1 27/32deg 2 5/16deg

Rear Toe:

1/16" 1/32" 3/32"

Rear Camber:

-1 19/32deg -1 11/32deg

These are after he had done the alignment, well all that he could do at the time, and I have driven it since then and it still pulls to the left. So now what do you all think?

I paid him $32 for aligning the rear and partially the front and he wants another $110 to "rework" the front struts to get the camber back within spec.

This car also has KYB struts and some lowering spring. I'm not sure what springs as it came this way when I got the car and I did not talk to the PO.

Thanks, Aaron

 

[stirpicult]

Front toe:

Left: Right: Total:
0" -1/32" -1/16"



Front caster:

1 27/32deg 2 5/16deg


These are after he had done the alignment, well all that he could do at the time, and I have driven it since then and it still pulls to the left. So now what do you all think?

I paid him $32 for aligning the rear and partially the front and he wants another $110 to "rework" the front struts to get the camber back within spec.

Thanks, Aaron

you have all three working against you there.

factory specs:
1G AWD Front Suspension;
Camber: +0.1 degree plus or minus 0.5 degrees
Caster: 2.3 degrees plus/minus 0.5 degree
Toe-in: zero plus/minus 3 mm

your right toe is pointed left and your left strut is more upright. these 2 things will definitely make the car pull left. then you have the camber problem with that. so all three will lean the car's direction left. the caster is actually pretty close to factory specs, and the toe is in factory range.
i would have him do whatever he is going to do to fix it. then, before you pay him, have him do the final reading in front of you, and then take him out on a test drive of it with you. if all is well, then pay him. fix all three into spec. i would try and have him bring the left camber and caster to match the right.
also, out of curiousity, how bad is the pull?

 

[Arod]

The pull is fairly bad, you can't let go of the wheel at all on the high way you'll go accross the lanes right away. If you get on the crown of the road just right it won't pull. I could live with it, but I don't want to.

This shop is a good shop i'm not too worried about getting screwed or anything. He says that if he gets the camber back into spec than the caster should be pretty close and it shouldn't pull any more. I just wasn't sure what he could do to correct the camber. It sounds from you guys that fixing the camber and then the toe should fix the pull.

Thanks for all the input!!
Aaron

 

[stirpicult]

The pull is fairly bad, you can't let go of the wheel at all on the high way you'll go accross the lanes right away. If you get on the crown of the road just right it won't pull. I could live with it, but I don't want to.

This shop is a good shop i'm not too worried about getting screwed or anything. He says that if he gets the camber back into spec than the caster should be pretty close and it shouldn't pull any more. I just wasn't sure what he could do to correct the camber. It sounds from you guys that fixing the camber and then the toe should fix the pull.

Thanks for all the input!!
Aaron

that's cool. i have had mostly bad luck with allignment shops. good luck.

 

[undrboost]

i understand the tire wear issue. instead of getting 10k out of your tires, you get 9.5k. instead of power hitting the ground over 7 inches, its now only touching a solid 3 with a gradual raise for the other 4. that i understand, and i get it being pretty much not a big deal.
what i don't get is camber thrust with a zero toe tire.
if he has -1.25 on the right side and no allignment, then he also has toe pointing left, which would cause the care to go left as well. i can even understand a general pull left, but noticeable? i cannot see it. a degree causing a pull strong enough that he has to constantly pull it back straight? when factory specs allow for up to a degree difference? i can see it all with a larger difference in the angles, but not a degree. not a pull he would actually post about.

no one in this post has addressed his toe issues. he has not posted whether or not he drove it after the toe was zeroed. he said it was pulling and his inside tires (plural) were eaten, and then he posted with his camber angles (which are not extreme at all). -.25 of camber didn't cause his tire wear...the toe that he didn't post did.

either way (me being right or wrong), arod, get the quote. if it sounds reasonable, it probably is. get the camber back within specs.

ok i didnt mean to cut you like that but look anything more than .5 a 1/2 of a degree will cause a pull. the right front wheel -1.25 is leaning inward left. 1 degree is alot enough to pull pretty hard if you let go of the wheel. even if he had the front toe zeroed out. the factoy specs give you certain tolerances plus or minus. as long as your within like .4 of each other it wont pull i mean you would ideally like to have them even with each other so they cancel each other out. yes toe and camber are your primary tire wear angles more toe than camber if you like seen extreme conditions of camber.
ok camber thust imagine your RR wheel is leaning out say +1.0 and your LR wheel is leaning in -1.0 and rear toe is .25 and .25, and your front toe and camber is zeroed out the thrust angle is pos. since both wheels is pointing right its going to force the back of the vehicle to the right and the front of the vehicle to the left thus causing a pull that would be the same conditions if toe was like that and camber was zero. remember anything more than .5 positive or negative will cause a pull with camber. camber pulls more positive, caster pulls more to your negative side. if toe is not equal in the front your steering wheel will not be straight and when you hold the steering wheel straight it will cause a pull. also if your toe is not equal or close toe will eat your tires up.

 

[undrboost]

The pull is fairly bad, you can't let go of the wheel at all on the high way you'll go accross the lanes right away. If you get on the crown of the road just right it won't pull. I could live with it, but I don't want to.

This shop is a good shop i'm not too worried about getting screwed or anything. He says that if he gets the camber back into spec than the caster should be pretty close and it shouldn't pull any more. I just wasn't sure what he could do to correct the camber. It sounds from you guys that fixing the camber and then the toe should fix the pull.

Thanks for all the input!!
Aaron

anytime you go and lower your car it changes your alignment thats why alot of people go out and buy camber kits, especially on 2in drops or more the more you drop it the more important it is in getting them. im not saying your getting ripped off or screwed just trying to give you some info so when they sit there and talk to you about your alignment you can understand what they are talking about. good luck hope they fix your car

 

[stirpicult]

ok i didnt mean to cut you like that but look anything more than .5 a 1/2 of a degree will cause a pull. the right front wheel -1.25 is leaning inward left. 1 degree is alot enough to pull pretty hard if you let go of the wheel. even if he had the front toe zeroed out. the factoy specs give you certain tolerances plus or minus. as long as your within like .4 of each other it wont pull i mean you would ideally like to have them even with each other so they cancel each other out. yes toe and camber are your primary tire wear angles more toe than camber if you like seen extreme conditions of camber.
ok camber thust imagine your RR wheel is leaning out say +1.0 and your LR wheel is leaning in -1.0 and rear toe is .25 and .25, and your front toe and camber is zeroed out the thrust angle is pos. since both wheels is pointing right its going to force the back of the vehicle to the right and the front of the vehicle to the left thus causing a pull that would be the same conditions if toe was like that and camber was zero. remember anything more than .5 positive or negative will cause a pull with camber. camber pulls more positive, caster pulls more to your negative side. if toe is not equal in the front your steering wheel will not be straight and when you hold the steering wheel straight it will cause a pull. also if your toe is not equal or close toe will eat your tires up.

makes more sense. thanks.

 

[Arod]

anytime you go and lower your car it changes your alignment thats why alot of people go out and buy camber kits, especially on 2in drops or more the more you drop it the more important it is in getting them. im not saying your getting ripped off or screwed just trying to give you some info so when they sit there and talk to you about your alignment you can understand what they are talking about. good luck hope they fix your car

I know that the drop messes with the alignment, but I thought it was a bigger problem with the rear. I was kindof worried about getting the rear within specs, but he was able to do that. But I have never read or heard of the front being affected by a drop. And with one side being affected more than the other doesn't really make sense.

I was thinking is there a bushing or something that holds the top of the strut? Is it possible that is is worn out? Causing the top of the strut to be more towards the center of the car causing my negative camber?

Thanks, Aaron

 

[undrboost]

I know that the drop messes with the alignment, but I thought it was a bigger problem with the rear. I was kindof worried about getting the rear within specs, but he was able to do that. But I have never read or heard of the front being affected by a drop. And with one side being affected more than the other doesn't really make sense.

I was thinking is there a bushing or something that holds the top of the strut? Is it possible that is is worn out? Causing the top of the strut to be more towards the center of the car causing my negative camber?

Thanks, Aaron

anythings possible. theres an upper strut mount that acts as a bearing on top of the strut, but probably not your problem in your case, you know when those go bad they sound like a knock when you go over bumps. struts sound like that when there bad also. check your front end suspension upper + lower balljoints, inner and outter tierod ends, tire pressure? if any are loose, psi in the tires are low, all can change your alignment readings. dont forget something can be bent. have you gotten in a wreck? previous owner gotten into a wreck? if so theres your problem. on these vehicles CASTER is N/A non adjustable meaning if its out of spec something is bent.