FP18g or PTE3231 - help me decide

[joyfil2001]

.....and cost 80% more to repair/replace when it takes a dump.

My thoughts exactly. I think I am going to go with the 18g. It will cost less and it will not require any additional parts since I have the supporting mods.

 

[delta448]

If I go with the 18g, I wont have to change my injectors, and I can keep my piping configuration the same. If I go with the PTE3231 I know I will need at least 750cc injectors, change my I/C pping around, and I will have no idea how spool will affect my car. My current turbo(ebay 20g) takes a whole 8 seconds on the line to spool, and it doesnt reach full spool till about 3900 rpm.

Injectors will support the same amount of airflow no matter what turbo you use. Choosing a bigger turbo doesn't mean you need bigger injectors to reach the same whp.
Does your eBay 20G have a TD05H stamped turbine housing? -I've heard bad things about some of those TD05H 20Gs in particular.

Do you have any idea what the power difference is between the 18g and the 50 trim?

There's a member (bastard dsm) on the dyno list showing 445awhp on an 18G 6SL2 with pump gas, most people say the 50 trim is not worth much more than that. There's only one 50 trim listed on the pump gas dyno list anywhere higher than that, and it's an FP Green which has a much better hotside than the PTE versions.

Here is what I am thinking: the FP 18G-6SL2 should spool faster than this pos ebay 20g and still flow better. Ebay claims this 20g flows at 640cfm but I highly doubt it. The 18g flows at 600cfm.

I agree totally if it does happen to be one of those TD05H 20Gs. The TD05H hotside they use is the same as the one they use on the knockoff 16Gs. It is just way too restrictive for a 20G compressor to really shine IMHO, -and then you should also consider it's an eBay turbo. There's no way it will reliably compete with a real MHI in spool-up or max flow, that 640 must be someone's dyslexia affliction... should be more like 460, especially at the boost level the sellers say it's okay to use it at.

I would expect the 18G-6SL2 and the TD05H 20G to spool about the same, with the 18G possibly getting the nod for better airflow. The 20G compressor can produce more air, but in that case you're limited by the TD05H turbine's flow potential.

That's exactly what I'm thinking.

I think 20g is considered a 48 trim.

You do understand that a larger trim number doesn't necessarily mean a larger wheel, right? It only describes the shape of the wheel in more detail once the size is known, inducer/exducer diameter is much more important.

OP, my advice to you would be to get the smallest turbo that will meet your expectations. Especially since you have an automatic.

I agree with what Justin said about the 20G compressor being mismatched with a TD05H turbine. Now add in the fact that it's an eBay 20G and you're probably seeing less all-around performance than a true MHI E3 16G could offer. The spool would be slower and I doubt the max flow is very much more, if at all. My recommendation would have to be the 18G 6SL2 hands down. There's also a sale going on right now too.

 

[ILLiCliPSE]

.....and cost 80% more to repair/replace when it takes a dump.

Nobody serious about going fast buys a turbo because its cheaper to fix if it breaks.

You gotta pay to play.

 

[JusMX141]

My thoughts exactly. I think I am going to go with the 18g. It will cost less and it will not require any additional parts since I have the supporting mods.

It's probably a wise choice. Nothing beats the durability of a Mitsu CHRA.

So many guys are having durability issues with T3 Hybrids....I'm seeing more and more of them popping up that are suffering from complications caused by too much oil, etc.

The FP 18G seems to be a well-balanced package and it will bolt directly in place of the turbo it will be replacing.

 

[JusMX141]

Nobody serious about going fast buys a turbo because its cheaper to fix if it breaks.

You gotta pay to play.

That's understandable, but sometimes the fragility of a ball-bearing turbo outweighs the slight loss in spool time given by a journal-bearing unit.

I've been rebuilding turbos over 5 years now, and given what I've seen I would choose a journal-bearing turbo any day of the week. One of my buddies destroyed his awesome SBR GT13 when the rod bearings in his engine failed. Had that been a journal-bearing turbo, I would've had it rebuilt and boosting again for around $75 in parts. Instead, he was faced with a $600+ replacement CHRA from Slowboy. For that much you could buy a whole NEW journal-bearing turbo.

There's a whole new (and relatively undiscovered) world of Holset journal-bearing turbos out there that are putting down some impressive numbers and super-low spool times...there are threads on here with pages of useful airflow data.

You can't forget how far tuning devices have come, and new fuels like E85 (available at the pump) and VP's Import and Q16 have changed EVERYTHING. With many guys hitting 11's on 16G's and some even touching 10's, exactly how MUCH must you pay in order to play?

 

[ILLiCliPSE]

One of my buddies destroyed his awesome SBR GT13 when the rod bearings in his engine failed. Had that been a journal-bearing turbo, I would've had it rebuilt and boosting again for around $75 in parts. Instead, he was faced with a $600+ replacement CHRA from Slowboy. For that much you could buy a whole NEW journal-bearing turbo.

Ill agree with you on that. But you can buy a DBB turbo from (for example..) Forced Performance. If you use their inline-oil filter/ restrictor, they'll warranty the turbo if anything were to "contaminate" the oil, and destroy the turbo. Dont get me wrong...journal bearing turbo's can be good too. A lot of Evo guys are running 37R's making serious power, and I believe those are journal bearing.

 

[joyfil2001]

Injectors will support the same amount of airflow no matter what turbo you use. Choosing a bigger turbo doesn't mean you need bigger injectors to reach the same whp.
Does your eBay 20G have a TD05H stamped turbine housing? -I've heard bad things about some of those TD05H 20Gs in particular.

There's a member (bastard dsm) on the dyno list showing 445awhp on an 18G 6SL2 with pump gas, most people say the 50 trim is not worth much more than that. There's only one 50 trim listed on the pump gas dyno list anywhere higher than that, and it's an FP Green which has a much better hotside than the PTE versions.

I agree totally if it does happen to be one of those TD05H 20Gs. The TD05H hotside they use is the same as the one they use on the knockoff 16Gs. It is just way too restrictive for a 20G compressor to really shine IMHO, -and then you should also consider it's an eBay turbo. There's no way it will reliably compete with a real MHI in spool-up or max flow, that 640 must be someone's dyslexia affliction... should be more like 460, especially at the boost level the sellers say it's okay to use it at.

That's exactly what I'm thinking.


You do understand that a larger trim number doesn't necessarily mean a larger wheel, right? It only describes the shape of the wheel in more detail once the size is known, inducer/exducer diameter is much more important.

OP, my advice to you would be to get the smallest turbo that will meet your expectations. Especially since you have an automatic.

I agree with what Justin said about the 20G compressor being mismatched with a TD05H turbine. Now add in the fact that it's an eBay 20G and you're probably seeing less all-around performance than a true MHI E3 16G could offer. The spool would be slower and I doubt the max flow is very much more, if at all. My recommendation would have to be the 18G 6SL2 hands down. There's also a sale going on right now too.

Great post. Thanks for the advice. I am definately going with the 18g.

 

[joyfil2001]

Ill agree with you on that. But you can buy a DBB turbo from (for example..) Forced Performance. If you use their inline-oil filter/ restrictor, they'll warranty the turbo if anything were to "contaminate" the oil, and destroy the turbo. Dont get me wrong...journal bearing turbo's can be good too. A lot of Evo guys are running 37R's making serious power, and I believe those are journal bearing.

FP will not warant ythe turbo. They aren't exactly number 1 with customer service. Check out this link:

Why you may want to STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo - IWSTI.com: Subaru STI Forums

And lots of people buy turbos because they are cheap. Isn't price a huge factor when you buy ANYTHING? I see what your trying to say, but I want to get the best bang for the buck.

 

[JusMX141]

Interesting post from the STi forum. It makes me wonder if the internals FP uses are truly MHI considering they openly admit their turbine and compressor housings are made in China.

Here's what's got me wondering if the FP 18G-6SL2's internals are MHI or not:

eBay Motors: Turbo Turbine wheel Mitsubishi TD06L2 TD06SL2 20G (item 120308793793 end time Oct-02-08 05:46:09 PDT)

eBay Motors: Turbo Compressor Wheel Mitsubishi TD05H 18G T518Z (item 120308796988 end time Oct-02-08 06:01:02 PDT)

I don't know alot, but "KAMAK DYNAMICS" doesn't sound anything like "Mitsubishi Heavy Industries", yet their items look shockingly similar. I've also never seen an MHI turbine just break on it's own like the example given with the 20G on the STi forum. It's possible a foreign object caused the damage, but highly unlikely on a low-mileage engine.

If you had an affordable way to machine the housings, you could literally build your own 18G-6SL2 out of an Evo III 16G using the above listed parts for a lot less money.

 

[webconnect]

FP will not warant ythe turbo. They aren't exactly number 1 with customer service. Check out this link:

Why you may want to STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo - IWSTI.com: Subaru STI Forums

Wow

 

[hypnoticpimp]

FP will not warant ythe turbo. They aren't exactly number 1 with customer service. Check out this link:

Why you may want to STAY AWAY from FP (Forced Performance) Turbo - IWSTI.com: Subaru STI Forums

And lots of people buy turbos because they are cheap. Isn't price a huge factor when you buy ANYTHING? I see what your trying to say, but I want to get the best bang for the buck.

wow x2

 

[joyfil2001]

The FP Green and the FP 20g for Subaru application is manufactured by FP or their other outsources. However, I do believe that the 18g and 20g DSM turbos are MHI. That is the ONLY reason I am even considering buying the 18g from them. My friend has an STi with one of the newer FP green's and he is still running strong(good luck to him). I spoke with my tuning shop and they also say they have had trouble dealing with Forced Performance on turbo warranties.

 

[MY1GDSM]

me I say go with the Scm5031re ... I have one and from what read it will work for what your looking for... just fead it from the head with a filter & restrictor and you will be good as gold and as far as Garrett BB turbo's your not gonna be worrying about re-building it for a long time there are a few members on here that have been running the for years with out yet re-buildin them... I would go more into detail but I on my PS3 right now...PITA to write

 

[joyfil2001]

me I say go with the Scm5031re ... I have one and from what read it will work for what your looking for... just fead it from the head with a filter & restrictor and you will be good as gold and as far as Garrett BB turbo's your not gonna be worrying about re-building it for a long time there are a few members on here that have been running the for years with out yet re-buildin them... I would go more into detail but I on my PS3 right now...PITA to write

I am leaning more towards the 18g because of my auto tranny. Also, I have everything I need to install it and get it running where with the 50 trim I would need(want) to purchase bigger injectors.

 

[MY1GDSM]

How much boost do you plan on running?

 

[joyfil2001]

How much boost do you plan on running?

Im running 22psi now and I don't want to run anymore than 25psi. Why do you ask?

 

[90laserRSfwd]

I didn't know you were alrady in the 1.8 range with your 60'. Congrats on that right there! I still recommend the 18g. I'm not sure about the subaru guys but every turbo I've every bought from FP has had ZERO failures. I can't make up your mind for you, I can only offer my opinion. The thing that sucks about the FP 18g is the $800 price tag. I sincerely hope you go with the 18g. I know you won't be disappointed. You could also look into some other things (wouldn't help with spool, but with acceleration, like an aluminum drive shaft for example. Just keep us updated....

 

[MY1GDSM]

Well I'm running 26 psi ... And The other day I logged a pull and holding a steady 11.1-11.2 A/f ratio to redline I peaked at about 72% duty on my 880's
I also was flowing 333 gram/s which is about 44 lb's a Min...If my math is right you COULD run the 650's you would be a max duty at 25+ psi but I don't see you having any problems running 22psi ...

 

[joyfil2001]

I didn't know you were alrady in the 1.8 range with your 60'. Congrats on that right there! I still recommend the 18g. I'm not sure about the subaru guys but every turbo I've every bought from FP has had ZERO failures. I can't make up your mind for you, I can only offer my opinion. The thing that sucks about the FP 18g is the $800 price tag. I sincerely hope you go with the 18g. I know you won't be disappointed. You could also look into some other things (wouldn't help with spool, but with acceleration, like an aluminum drive shaft for example. Just keep us updated....

My reaction time was 8 seconds . Thats how long it took me to build 20psi off the line and get me that 60'. Also, there is a group buy on here to get the FP18g for $699. To me that is a great deal!

Well I'm running 26 psi ... And The other day I logged a pull and holding a steady 11.1-11.2 A/f ratio to redline I peaked at about 72% duty on my 880's
I also was flowing 333 gram/s which is about 44 lb's a Min...If my math is right you COULD run the 650's you would be a max duty at 25+ psi but I don't see you having any problems running 22psi ...

Well thanks for that info. Definately don't want to max out my IDC. I only have a chipped ecu so I don't want to run anywhere near 25psi.

 

[MY1GDSM]

My reaction time was 8 seconds . Thats how long it took me to build 20psi off the line and get me that 60'.



Well thanks for that info. Definately don't want to max out my IDC. I only have a chipped ecu so I don't want to run anywhere near 25psi.

I run a keydiver chip also but with MAFt gen 2... that 11.1:1-11.2:1 was with 0 Correction on the Maf-t on the high load and I have 11:1 maps...

 

[joyfil2001]

How can you run 26psi on the factory ecu then? Jeff from keydiver told me that the ecu is only mapped to 25psi.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Yes his basic extened maps are only to 25 psi but just like the factory Ecu where the maps only go to about 15 in a 1g it does'nt stop you, the Air flow cap does...If I ever go higher I will have him burn me a a chip with EVEN higher maps but when I asked him about running more than 23 that I had planed on(wastegate sping had other plans) he said it would be fine...

 

[joyfil2001]

Well I just called Forced Performance to get my questions answered. They do use MHI internal parts for the 18g. The only difference is the compressor cover is not MHI. Also, they said the turbo is already ported to its max. Sound really good to me.

 

[JusMX141]

Well I just called Forced Performance to get my questions answered. They do use MHI internal parts for the 18g. The only difference is the compressor cover is not MHI. Also, they said the turbo is already ported to its max. Sound really good to me.

I believe that's because the chinese turbine housing FP uses is cast from a ported Evo III 16G housing, just as the turbine housing on your eBay 20G was. FP may go a step further by cleaning up the casting flaws and polishing the inside of the housing to a "SBR Shine", but I'm not sure of that.

 

[delta448]

I didn't get past page 4 of the subie thread, but I think that Robert dealt fairly with that situation.

It seemed to me that the OP there was trying to throw his weight around because he was an "elite moderator" , -seriously ...what kind of site leader on a tech forum doesn't even install his own turbos? Wouldn't want to ruin that prissy new manicure, now would we... for crying out loud, pull out the tampon already and start getting your hands dirty.

Not many turbo vendors are going to offer a refund instead of just replacing the turbo, especially when the customer makes smartass remarks and subtle threats about additional expenses like car rentals.

We all saw the pictures, that 20g turbine definitely looked like it failed from a foreign object impact. I'd trust Robert's opinion and his honesty before most anonymous forum users. How is that 20G FP's fault? And the other turbo, Robert offered to replace it without any argument.

I'd trust FP to be fair before most vendors out there and I'll continue to use their parts without a hint of worry.