First log of GT30r

[SlowboyCSE]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

RULE!

Cragger Out.

 

[Ronin17]

Went out and adjusted the wastegate arm, made sure the arm was as short as possible to keep the flapper closed.

Sadly when I went out the turbo is still spooling really slow

I guess the next step is to make sure the BOV isn't cracking open and causing the turbo to spool slower. It definitely has happened to me in the past.

Wish me luck

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Check for boost leaks (they would have to be large), be sure the preload on the WG arm is acceptable, check for exhaust leaks, and advanced timing/shyte tuning. Also consider what I said in my other post about when you are getting on the gas. Spoolup is not all about rpm, a lot of it has to do with time as well. So get on it early enough for it to represent rpm if you are looking to quantify boost threshold.


Even with the AFC taking out some of the airflow signal, its too low. We have already covered this point. VE does have a lot to do with it, which is why I gave "normal" figures for stock cams vs aftermarket cams, stock intake vs aftermarket, etc. I've seen our 2 liters get up to 45 lbs/min at 20 psi well modded. All of the airflow enhancing mods must be taken into cosideration.


AFC correction values are completely relevant. A given correction will result in a given AFR if everything is working as it was intended to. Mods like cams and intake will not affect this, only fuel pressure, boost leaks, MAS calibration, etc. My comment made in my last post based on those values still stands.


A couple months back I put down 430 HP to the wheels (on pump gas) with SBR turbo, motor, and most other parts. Ran 119 (on pump) when the track opened. All at ~22 psi. I dont see the problem I guess. There is a time and a place to express your opinion of vendors, someones thread where they are looking for help is not it.

 

[Ronin17]

Check for boost leaks (they would have to be large), be sure the preload on the WG arm is acceptable, check for exhaust leaks, and advanced timing/shyte tuning. Also consider what I said in my other post about when you are getting on the gas. Spoolup is not all about rpm, a lot of it has to do with time as well. So get on it early enough for it to represent rpm if you are looking to quantify boost threshold.

I am going to do a boost leak tomorrow and see what I find, with the terrible spool time and low airflow rate I am sure I will find a big leak somewhere.

I am curious what you mean about preload on the WG arm? I adjusted the wastegate arm tonight to the shortest position I could get and spool up is still terrible. Is there anything I need to do besides adjusting the length of the arm by screwing the end of it shorter? Sorry for my ignorance.

I am pretty sure I don't have any exhaust leaks, I checked over my manifold and didn't notice any cracks. I also didn't see any blow by near the head/manifold area.

About the timing issue, I am thinking that if I had a boost leak I definitely wouldn't have to be leaning out the S-AFC as much as I have to now. Hopefully this will allow me to keep running the 2g mas/s-afc combo and not have to drop the money for DSMLink. Then again if I had the money, I would love to have DSMLink and a wideband o2 sensor kit of some sort.

Thanks 95GSXracer for the help and also those are some really nice dyno numbers!

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I am going to do a boost leak tomorrow and see what I find, with the terrible spool time and low airflow rate I am sure I will find a big leak somewhere.

Its worth mentioning that if you are still using the stock mas or any airflow sensor before the turbo, ANY boost leak will cause higher airflow readings, not lower. So I wouldnt expect to find much. But often different problems combine and baffle the best of us

I am curious what you mean about preload on the WG arm? I adjusted the wastegate arm tonight to the shortest position I could get and spool up is still terrible. Is there anything I need to do besides adjusting the length of the arm by screwing the end of it shorter? Sorry for my ignorance.

Thats basically it. Ideally the rod will be just a touch too short, putting a little "preload" or pressure holding it closed. Too short and you reduce available travel and will likely end up wth some creep. As long as the WG flapper properly covers the hole, and there is some preload, only a weak actuator spring would cause problems. And thats very unlikely on a new actuator.

And what you display is far from ignorance. Its just the learning process. A better example of ignorance is what we have seen elsewhere in this thread.

I am pretty sure I don't have any exhaust leaks, I checked over my manifold and didn't notice any cracks. I also didn't see any blow by near the head/manifold area.

Might as well rule that out, but give it another once over anyway.

About the timing issue, I am thinking that if I had a boost leak I definitely wouldn't have to be leaning out the S-AFC as much as I have to now. Hopefully this will allow me to keep running the 2g mas/s-afc combo and not have to drop the money for DSMLink. Then again if I had the money, I would love to have DSMLink and a wideband o2 sensor kit of some sort.

But this is the point I was trying to make earlier. At ~-28% on 650s, you havent leaned out at all. You are richer than stock. Use old injector (450) divided by new injector (650), minus 1, to come up with the correction percentage that will put you back on stock AFR levels, if all other thigns remain equal.

Let me ask again what rpm you are flooring it at. In that log posted in the beginning, it was way too high to make any judgement on boost threshold. If you havent already, floor it at 2000-2500 rpm and post at what rpm you get full boost. If you have already done this, what was the rpm. A turbo can feel laggy if the test is done improperly and one is not used to a turbo of that size. Lets make sure this is really abnormal before we spend any more time troubleshooting the causes

 

[kpt4321]

Unbolt that POS gt30 PTE knock off hack job, put it in a box and mail it back to slowboy. Pick up the phone call Forced performance and buy the turbo pictured below, this is my suggestion.

We know you like FP more than you like SBR. I think we have figured that out by now. Do you want to stop trying to sell their stuff?

Thanks.

 

[kpt4321]

A couple months back I put down 430 HP to the wheels (on pump gas) with SBR turbo, motor, and most other parts. Ran 119 (on pump) when the track opened. All at ~22 psi.

Hey LiquidIllusionofSpeed, those numbers handily beat the numbers quoted in your signature, with your fancy ass "way better" FP 3065. What's up with that, I thought everything SBR made was crap?

Let the excuses and insults fly.

 

[LandoAWD]

My apologies, I honestly don't care enough about this vender ass kissing school yard to update my signature on a regular basis. We all found it pretty funny that a car making 501whp ran a 12.6 on it first pass straight from our AWD dynojet.My driving sucks so guilty as charged.

Slowboys minions or their comedic responses don't concern me. Every rebuttal has been from a slowboy employed tool or someone from the slowboy cheer-leading squad. The reality is he purchases a tiny ball bearing turbo that is laggy, hard to install and basically *crap*

You get what you pay for.

Please see rules concerning vendor bashing. Thanks.

 

[red91gst]

My apologies, I honestly don't care enough about this vender ass kissing school yard to update my signature on a regular basis. We all found it pretty funny that a car making 501whp ran a 12.6 on it first pass straight from our AWD dynojet.My driving sucks so guilty as charged.

Slowboys minions or their comedic responses don't concern me. Every rebuttal has been from a slowboy employed tool or someone from the slowboy cheer-leading squad. The reality is he purchases a tiny ball bearing turbo that is laggy, hard to install and basically *crap*

You get what you pay for.

Then I guess that means your wearing the FP minskirt and varsity jacket! GO FP GO GO FP!

Get a life dude.

Nate

 

[LandoAWD]

Then I guess that means your wearing the FP minskirt and varsity jacket! GO FP GO GO FP!

Get a life dude.

Nate

This only adds fuel to the fire. Please refrain from participating in this juvenile bullshit.

 

[Liquid Illusion]

Please see rules concerning vendor bashing. Thanks.

Correction, he purchased by his one definition a custom vender specific GT30 ball bearing turbo.Which is laggy hard to install and very problematic.


hows that

 

[red91gst]

why is it when you click [my webpage] at the bottom of your post, it takes you to slowboys webpage :laugh:

I love cheer-leaders :laugh: :laugh:

Lets all grow up and get back to the original thread.

As Kevin was saying its most likely a boost leak in the charge pipes somwhere or there is not enough pretension on the actuator arm. By the sounds of it you already adjusted the arm on the actuator, so let us know what you find when you to a leak test.

BTW, that shiny FP is a GT-30R, same CHRA.

Nate

 

[Liquid Illusion]

Lets all grow up and get back to the original thread.

BTW, that shiny FP is a GT-30R, same CHRA.

Nate

:laugh: :laugh:

If it is the same CHRA used in the FP3052 which I doubt for your sake. Makes it even more laughable. That slowboys gt30 PTE knock off hack job spools at 4300 rpms. When everyone else with a FP3052 which *you* say has the same CHRA as slowboys gt30. Spools almost *700* rpms sooner with a larger TH.

Now back to my original comment, about slowboy copying everything other turbo shops do with poorly imitated knock offs. If you are correct ,and the Slowboy GT30 hack job uses the same CHRA as the FP3052. Considering the FP3052 was put into production first. I guess slowboy is back to their old copy cat antics.

what a joke :laugh: :laugh:


I know what wheel is in the FP3052 do you?

 

[Ronin17]

Its worth mentioning that if you are still using the stock mas or any airflow sensor before the turbo, ANY boost leak will cause higher airflow readings, not lower. So I wouldnt expect to find much. But often different problems combine and baffle the best of us

DOH! Well I will still be looking for boost leaks. Might as well make sure all the connections before the turbo are nice and tight also.

But this is the point I was trying to make earlier. At ~-28% on 650s, you havent leaned out at all. You are richer than stock. Use old injector (450) divided by new injector (650), minus 1, to come up with the correction percentage that will put you back on stock AFR levels, if all other thigns remain equal.

You got me again!

I get what you are trying to say about -28% with 650's being equal to the 450's, but this turbo isn't flowing a lot of air right now. If I were to figure out my problem and have this turbo start flowing in the high 30's lb/min, wouldn't that equal less leaning out on the s-afc to compensate for the increased airflow? Your not saying that 650's are too big for this setup are you? I'm a little confused.

Let me ask again what rpm you are flooring it at. In that log posted in the beginning, it was way too high to make any judgement on boost threshold. If you havent already, floor it at 2000-2500 rpm and post at what rpm you get full boost. If you have already done this, what was the rpm. A turbo can feel laggy if the test is done improperly and one is not used to a turbo of that size. Lets make sure this is really abnormal before we spend any more time troubleshooting the causes

I made another log yesterday and went WOT at ~2500 RPMs. Here is the Log. This was also with my Hi settings 1k to 4k -31% 4k to 7k -30%. The S-AFC showed 2132Hz as the highest on this run.

Even flooring it early doesn't help the spool up time at all, I also tried 4th gear 2500 and going WOT and still get a terrible spool up rate. Turbo starts to spool near 2900rpms and then probably reaches ~10psi near 3500rpms, it then shoots to 20psi very fast near 4500+rpms.

Liquid Illusion: Dude I don't know what your problem is, but your really not helping me out by wasting space and attacking other members and companies.

If you want me to switch to FP so bad please package up a new FP3052 with 38mm Tial wastegate and custom 3" o2 housing and send it to me. I will then install the FP turbo and see if my results have changed. Of course all of the costs and shipping charges will have to be covered by you, but this is a small price to pay to get a direct comparison between the two turbos right?

You do have a couple thousand lying around don't you? Good! I can PM you my shipping address anytime.

But seriously, let's try and keep it civil in this thread.

 

[Liquid Illusion]

Even flooring it early doesn't help the spool up time at all, I also tried 4th gear and still get a terrible spool up rate near 4500+rpms.

dude Landoawd said no vender bashing :laugh:

If you want me to switch to FP so bad please package up a new FP3052

you should have bought the FP3052 from the begining but now i think you know better

but this is a small price to pay to get a direct comparison between the two turbos right?

The price you're paying now is priceless, I hope others learn from your poorly researched turbo selection. . I mean you destroyed your water pipe installing the turbo, and had to replace it. How long did you wait to get this turbo again? :laugh: Oh yeah and now to add insult to injury now you have a tiny turbo that spools at 4500 rpms :laugh:

In all seriousness, i think you have the wrong turbo. Its not uncommon for slowboy to #### up a turbo order. I bet you have a gt35R, pull the compressor cover off and mic the wheel whats the A/R stap on the CH?

You do have a couple thousand lying around don't you?

No i dont, didnt you read mikes post i work at sams club :laugh:


Landoawd is this vender bashing

 

[red91gst]

Liquid Illusion:

724.349.8417 ext 18 Give me a call and we can talk about this all day, but keep your childish posts off the tuners so we can help this guy.

I guess everyone is copying Garrett then? (They make the CHRA, but you better keep that a secret)

Nate

 

[Ronin17]

damn bud looks like you just dont learn


Saturday, November 22, 2003 ::

I am going to take the GT10 off (for the 3rd time) and send it to SBR to see if they can fix it up for me. My car has been blowing some smoke and I saw a little smoke come from where the turbo and o2 housing meet,

Monday, December 01, 2003 ::

Talked with Mike at SBR and the CHRA center section would have to be replaced to have my turbo back to good as new. So might as well go and upgrade it! I've decided to go with a GT30R CHRA,

Wednesday, April 21, 2004 ::

I have the GT30r


So your first slowboy turbo blew up in november of 03. mike had it by december and didnt send you a new one until frickin april :laugh: :laugh: dude thats 4 months for a turbo!!!! :laugh: :laugh: we got our FP3065 in 4 days and anthony got is fp3052 in about 10 days.

I hardly ever update my website, you might notice the huge jumps in the dates, most of the time I update it whenever I feel like it. Also no it didn't take 4 months to get my turbo, but thanks for taking the time from bashing SBR to start bashing me and my own decisions. You really know how to ruin threads don't you?

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I get what you are trying to say about -28% with 650's being equal to the 450's, but this turbo isn't flowing a lot of air right now. If I were to figure out my problem and have this turbo start flowing in the high 30's lb/min, wouldn't that equal less leaning out on the s-afc to compensate for the increased airflow? Your not saying that 650's are too big for this setup are you? I'm a little confused.

A certain setting on the AFC will give you a certain AFR, regardless of airflow. Well, assuming you stay on the same map. Once you hit 2.1 g/rev, the highest map, this will be true. But I dont know which one you are one now, because your logger doesnt display this information. But you see my point. The AFC gives you percentage based control over AFR. Leaning out say 10% at 30 lbs/min is the same as it is at 40 lbs/min, assuming you are over 2.1 g/rev.

I'm not saying that 650s are too big, just that you havent leaned out at all yet. Its more a matter of wording. You are at stock fueling levels now, though you will end up on leaner maps and higher timing tables because of the reduced airflow signal to the ECU. So I guess in THAT sense you could say you leaned out I hope this at least illustrates the crappy side effects of tuning by modifying the airflow signal.

Even flooring it early doesn't help the spool up time at all, I also tried 4th gear 2500 and going WOT and still get a terrible spool up rate. Turbo starts to spool near 2900rpms and then probably reaches ~10psi near 3500rpms, it then shoots to 20psi very fast near 4500+rpms.

Ok, this is what I'm looking for. 10 psi by 3500 is fairly normal, especially considering you are not tuned yet. But that delay to 20 psi is not right. My 56 trim TDO6H spooled by 4400 on a 2 liter. The timing advance you would get from running 650s and an AFC combined with low airflow might explain it, but I dont know that we can explain all of that gap by timing. Check your base timing at least, if its adjustable on your car (1g CAS?). If you want to get frisky, drop it to zero and see what it does for spool in the name of science. :laugh:

Being excessively rich could cause this as well in my experience. Try taking another 5% out from 4000 and down. Of course you should use all due caution when leaning out, but give it a go and see what happens.

To repsond to your note in the log, changing fuel 1% isnt very likely to affect your front O2 voltage. In fact, on my car anything from 10:1 to 11.5:1 on the techedge WBO2 is the same ~.98 volts, :laugh: Its useless. Leaning out further on the AFC will increase timing however, and as I said in one of my first replies its already fairly high. I did some research on this last night though and I dont think its high enough to assume you are getting a lot of knock. It seems that at ~20 lbs/min the ECU still only shoots for about 20 degrees of timing if I remember correctly. And that was roughly 1.5 grams/rev airflow. 20-22 degrees on pump should be doable at such low airflow levels, well into the 30s I would expect. And indeed I did run that kind of timing at those airflow levels. To give the contrasting situation, I burned 3 cylinders at 23 degrees (minus 4 degrees knock = 18 degrees) at 55 lbs/min on pump gas. 22 psi, AFR on the wideband was 11:1, and front O2 was .98-1.0. 4 degrees knock is nothing, I used to run that all day. Beware of high timing on pump! Anyway...

After all this thinking out loud... I would start with the easy things first. Take some fuel out during the time the turbo should be spooling up and see what the results of that are. Post another log of it if possible regardless. If timing is adjustable on your car, check the base timing. Hell, check it anyway. You have to start ruling things out. What are you using for a boost controller? Try running the vac line straight to the actuator bypassing your boost controller. See if that changes anything. If you cant make any headway on it, I would try to swap in a different turbo and see if anything changes. If I had rebuilt my 56 trim by now, I would let you borrow it. Its a pain in the ass, but there is always an explanation for these problems, and contrary to some poeples convictions, it doesnt always point to the vendor.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Everyone in this thread so far is a slowboy employed tool so who cares.

I would appreciate it if you would stop calling me a slowboy employed tool, I have no affiliation with them, though I run many of thier parts. You are the one that has done nothing but swing of FP's nutsack since you joined this discussion, and have yet to add one bit of useful information, or show me some sign that you actually know what you are talking about. FP is a respectable vendor, and I would be emabarassed of you if I worked for them.

Are there no moderators among you that can handle this situation? Some of us are putting our time and energy into this thread in an effort to help resolve this problem, and I would rather not see it reduced to this level.

 

[LandoAWD]

I did a little cleaning up. MOST of the bullshit is gone, but I have work to do.

Try to keep this away from vendor bashing and shop wars, and on the topic at hand.

2. Insults and/or name calling - this can get you banned without warning - we don't care how experienced or knowledgable you are, being an ass is not acceptable

This applies to all of you. If you want to do the back and forth thing, take it to PMs or pick up a phone and shit-talk like a man.

 

[Maglin]

I did a little cleaning up. MOST of the bullshit is gone, but I have work to do.

Try to keep this away from vendor bashing and shop wars, and on the topic at hand.

2. Insults and/or name calling - this can get you banned without warning - we don't care how experienced or knowledgable you are, being an ass is not acceptable

This applies to all of you. If you want to do the back and forth thing, take it to PMs or pick up a phone and shit-talk like a man.

Word!!!

 

[Deflumte]

Wow, I read the first page, but I got sick of the crap.
I say you all just host a dynoday to see whos sh1t is better, just shut up already =p

 

[Ronin17]

Quick update: went -5% leaner and still nothing. Took the car for a drive around town and it really struggles in the lower RPM range, pretty much below 4500 rpms the car feels like it can hardly get up and go. 3rd gear going up a hill at around 35mph I can go WOT and the car hardly even moves.

I even was able to shorten the wastegate arm a little bit more for even more preload and there is still no difference in the spool.

95GSXRacer: I know you mentioned that a boost leak would make it read more airflow, This probably wouldn't be the case if the turbo was leaking around the compressor housing would it?

I am going to try bypassing my MBC and see if that changes anything, but I can't imagine the boost controller causing any of these problems.

I'm going to need a vacation away from this stupid car, it's really getting fustrating now.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Quick update: went -5% leaner and still nothing. Took the car for a drive around town and it really struggles in the lower RPM range, pretty much below 4500 rpms the car feels like it can hardly get up and go. 3rd gear going up a hill at around 35mph I can go WOT and the car hardly even moves.

This alone tells me the problem is deeper than just the turbo alone. Some fundamental part of tuning the car is wrong. Timing, fuel, compression, or air. I would take some time and go through it all. Disassemble as much as you have time and test as many things as possible. I would look for preturbo obstructions, do a compression test, check the timing, and experiment more with fuel settings. Maybe go 5% richer this time.

I even was able to shorten the wastegate arm a little bit more for even more preload and there is still no difference in the spool.

Unoikely to be the WG system then. But dont rule it out unless you know the flapper was properly covering the hole and sealing well before you instaled it.

95GSXRacer: I know you mentioned that a boost leak would make it read more airflow, This probably wouldn't be the case if the turbo was leaking around the compressor housing would it?

Yup, any boost leak will give higher airflow readings with the sensor in the stock location.

I am going to try bypassing my MBC and see if that changes anything, but I can't imagine the boost controller causing any of these problems.

Unlikely cause, but check everything. A bad MBC would likely cause the opposite problem (too much boost).

I'm going to need a vacation away from this stupid car, it's really getting fustrating now.

I know the feeling

 

[Ronin17]

Well I guess it's back on the jackstands for this car. I will check all the pre-turbo connections and make sure there's is nothing blocking the airflow, then a nice boost leak test, followed by removing the o2 housing to make sure the wastegate flapper is closing all the way.

Man do I hope there is nothing seriously wrong with my car, it was running strong with the T-25 a couple months ago. I can't see my engine being the problem here.

Until then I can always enjoy boost in the Evo, at least that isn't being a royal bi*** to me right now.