First log. Knock. High timing?

[xveganxcowboyx]

I finally got my logger going to try and figure out a problem (or several) I've been having. When The car is warm and I boost it's felt like timing is being pulled (sometimes it ran fine, sometimes it did this). At least that was with 91 octane in MT. I'm in MN now and running 92. It's more stable, but still seems to lack on 9/10 pulls.

Here are a few samples from some logs:

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This was not a full throttle run, but some seemingly spontanious knock that seemed worth posting. I'm also not sure what's going on with the zeroed out values at the end.

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This was a full throttle run. Notice the low RPM knock and heavy timing advance. I'm not sure what's going on at the end with decreasing RPM, but 100% throttle.



The car is stock minus an open air can and EGR removed. The compression is low. The exhaust manifold has a crack. There are no signiffigant boost leaks. The TPS sensor is new.

 

[snailed]

did you check the base timing and that the cams are alligned, other than that looks like you might need to add fuel because the hack lets more air in. thats all i have. good luck

 

[weith1111]

I would start with base timing as well. http://www.plymouthlaser.com/timin.htm

You are getting pretty high timing. The couple counts of knock you are getting aren't a big deal. Resolve the timing issue.

You are only at like 75% injector duty cycle, so that's fine.

By the way, when doing a log, try to be 100% throttle from 3-7k rpms. And drop the ISC and IPW so you get more samples per second on the things that count, knock, timing and rpm!

Good luck.

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

I would start with base timing as well. http://www.plymouthlaser.com/timin.htm

You are getting pretty high timing. The couple counts of knock you are getting aren't a big deal. Resolve the timing issue.

You are only at like 75% injector duty cycle, so that's fine.

By the way, when doing a log, try to be 100% throttle from 3-7k rpms. And drop the ISC and IPW so you get more samples per second on the things that count, knock, timing and rpm!

Good luck.

I will check base timing at my friends place tomorrow. (not timing light here...) Is the actual timing advance too high?

Even 10 counts of knock? I thought that was pretty high.

I will do some more runs with better logging. It was my first time and I was more 'testing' it. I may have to check my TPS as on a couple runs it only registered 95%. Where is the cut-off percent for ignoring the O2?

I assume the ISC and IPW are settings within MMCD to log faster. Do you know which direction to change them?

 

[spyderturbo007]

Once again weith1111 is on the ball.

He is exactly right, make a 3rd gear pull from 3k all the way to redline and post that bad boy up.

Disclaimer: Be careful, you will be going pretty fast in 3rd @ redline, so I would suggest doing this at night with a friend in the car so you don't have to worry about the logger.

[Mother mode off]

If the 1g is the same as the 2g, the ECU will enter WOT at a TPS reading of 90%. But I would wait for some of the 1g guys to jump in and confirm that.

I assume the ISC and IPW are settings within MMCD to log faster. Do you know which direction to change them?

What weith1111 ment by "drop them" was to turn off logging of those parameters. The less parameters you log, the more samples / second you will get. That means more data points!

Since we know that you aren't maxing out your injectors, there is no need to include that in the log.

 

[weith1111]

90% sounds right for WOT. I'd have to do some research, but if you are getting 95-99% it should be good.

As far as the knock goes, 10 counts is bad, but there is nothing you can really do to directly effect it being stock and all. Taking care of the timing problem will hopefully take care of the knock. I'd recommend doing the stage 0 mods, especially rewiring the fuel pump, that will only help things. Get back to us after you check the base timing.

 

[Talesin]

If you can find an unhacked MAS, it'd provide a better tuning baseline. The 1G MAS hack does provide a bit more power (by leaning out the stock A/F) for those without the cash for DSMLink or another tuning solution, but it no longer gives a reliable airflow reading.

And as noted above, check and set your base timing. Don't forget to ground both the plug on the firewall AND the pin on the OBDI plug before trying to set or read it, so the ECU won't fight the adjustment, and will give you an 'actual' reading on the timing light.

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

I should clarify. The honeycombs of my MAS are unhacked. I've only removed the cover. Also, I have an extra if it's ever needed

 

[kiggly]

It looks like something is wrong with the airmeter. Your injector open time shouldn't bobble down and back up like its doing while at WOT, unless boost is changing.

At one boost, pulsewidth should follow the torque curve, which won't be lumpy at high rpm's in a car like this.

Kevin

 

[spyderturbo007]

It looks like something is wrong with the airmeter. Your injector open time shouldn't bobble down and back up like its doing while at WOT, unless boost is changing.

At one boost, pulsewidth should follow the torque curve, which won't be lumpy at high rpm's in a car like this.

Kevin

Good eye, I didn't even notice that. You get a rep point!

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

It looks like something is wrong with the airmeter. Your injector open time shouldn't bobble down and back up like its doing while at WOT, unless boost is changing.

At one boost, pulsewidth should follow the torque curve, which won't be lumpy at high rpm's in a car like this.

Kevin

Should I try the other MAS? Try it with the cover back on the filter?


Timing info coming tomorrow. Probably a fresh log and if people think it would be helpful fresh compression numbers at this altitude.

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

Ok, I've checked the timing. it is 2-5 degrees PAST TDC. I want to adjust it, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to ground and the VFAQ articles aren't very clear. Could anybody clarify this for me?


*Edit* Nevermind. I took a gamble and seem to have got it set properly. Here are the new logs. The high end knock is scaring me. I can feel the stuttering at that speed much worse, but everything else is smoother with more consistent boosting and a little more power.

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[weith1111]

jesus f don't do that again.

set your timing properly and don't do any wot runs. 5* BTDC

BE SURE ABOUT IT!

because if you aren't, the only thing i'm sure of is you are going to blow your motor.

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

I'm pretty confident with the timing. The gamble was making sure the ground was the right one, but I set the timing to 5* BTDC, checked/set the idle, re-adjusted and rechecked the timing. It seemed pretty stable at 5* BTDC.

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

Anybody have any ideas on why the IJP is so wonky at high RPM? MAS? Poor fuel delivery (new filter and hand cleaned injectors, but stock fuel pump on stock wiring). I'm really scared about that kind of high knock.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Anybody have any ideas on why the IJP is so wonky at high RPM? MAS? Poor fuel delivery (new filter and hand cleaned injectors, but stock fuel pump on stock wiring). I'm really scared about that kind of high knock.

As said above, I would look into the air metering system. At WOT, the ECU uses the mass of air entering the engine to determine fuel delivery. Based on that mass of air, it opens the injectors for a certain period of time (IPW). The ECU doesn't know what the fuel pressure is, or how clean the injectors are....nor does it care. So even if your injectors were dirty, or you FP was going bad, the IPW would not reflect that.

 

[weith1111]

o2 sensor = shit

you've got bad o2 readings, weird timing, and weird IDC's

you've eliminated the timing being wrong, and the injectors/fuel delivery could be a bunch of things. the o2 is pretty simple. replace it. when was the last time it was changed? is the wiring on it ok? it looks like it's working fine at times, and then going nuts at others. i'd say that's your next target.

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

Ok, I'll swap out canisters today to see if the MAS is the problem. I'm just about done rewiring my fuel pump, just because that needed to be done. The O2 will probably have to wait until I find a job, sadly. A little lacking in the cash department.

I don't know when it was last changed. The wiring should be ok. I've poked the wires with a multimeter a few times, but that shouldn't be a problem. I'll look over the wires just in case.

Thanks guys!

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

WOOT! Check out the new logs after a fuel pump rewire and different MAS. Much better. Thanks guys!

BTW, I think the O2 looked funky, because it was going really lean every time the injectors stopped short.

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[weith1111]

That's pretty much an awesome log. Looks like you are losing some timing after 6k. Try to figure that out.

I'd also suggest logging airflow. It can give some insight to anything else weird that may be going on that you can or cannot notice at this point. Also, you can log IDC instead of PW then. I'd do that at least once to make sure your DC isn't too high. Or you could use the conversion based on rpm, but I don't have the link.

But really AWESOME JOB! Glad things worked out well!

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

I logged air flow the first time, but wasn't sure how to interpret the readings. Any advice on that?

*edit* I'm sure I'll keep fiddeling, but the loss of timing and any other little problems probably just come down to my below service limit compression and cracked manifold. Those things will be taken care as soon as it's war m enough to rely on my motorcycle.