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2G Ets 7 street intercooler won't fit with 2gb talon fogs lights.

Posted by Type1DSMr, Mar 16, 2016

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  1. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    So I'm trying to install an ETS 7' street intercooler on a 97 Eagle Talon, and it's not fitting with the stock fog lights. Is there something special you have to do to retain the fog lights? Or does anyone have step-by-step instructions for a 2gb talon install? It seems the intercooler is too big or maybe I have the fog light brackets in the wrong spot as I removed them over a year ago. Thanks
     
    Type1DSMr

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  2. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    Well I've been emailing ets, and it seems the newer intercoolers don't allow 2g talons to keep the fog lights only eclipse. Apparently they made a 20' version for the talon, which they do not make anymore. So with that said only the small versions will allow talons to retain fog lights and not the newer ones.
     
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  3. lunar eclipse96

    lunar eclipse96 Proven Member

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    Thanks for sharing that info. Seems like there's very little out there on installing an ETS intercooler on a 2g Talon. I picked up a used one but haven't gotten around to installing it yet. I hope it's the older version so I can keep my fog lights.
     
  4. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    Here's a picture that they emailed me showing me the difference. ets intercooler.jpg
     
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  5. ceedawg

    ceedawg Supporting Member

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    The new intercooler is better. Get rid of the fogs and use the space for brake ducts or the passenger one for a ram air setup and the drivers side for an oil cooler. That's what I did since my fogs no longer fit.
     
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  6. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    Granted the new design is better, but that was not the point to upgrade from a vrsf for an ets. The point was to keep the fog lights, and most posts says you can keep them and that isn't true. Only 2gb eclipses can not 2gb talons.
     
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  7. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    Update: Spoke to ETS again, and they will make their custom 20 inch intercooler for the talon to keep fog lights :D.
     
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  8. CiscoBite1Time

    CiscoBite1Time Proven Member

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    I suspect that is per request only? I'm not looking to upgrade from my vrsf but it would be nice to know in case I ever do.
     
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  9. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    Yes, it is per request. The talon intercooler in 3.0in is good for 400hp, 3.5in is good for 450hp, and the 4.0in is good for 500hp according to the email they sent me.
     
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  10. lunar eclipse96

    lunar eclipse96 Proven Member

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    Thanks for all these updates. Turns out I have the new version as well. Guess I'm going to have to get the talon version from them. Did they give you any prices?
     
  11. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    Yes, it is the same price as the street intercooler, but in the comment section ask for the 20 inch core for Eagle Talon fog light fitment.

    I hope this thread helps future Talon owners who want to keep their fog lights.

    I will be getting the 4in thick since my goals are around 400whp, but I want that extra protection to 500whp.
     
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  12. gofer

    gofer Moderator

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    Unfortunately not all intercoolers are created equal. I'm certain that ETS's design is a lot more efficient than the VRSF core, with less pressure drop across it. The problem that I see is that amount of surface area you're losing just to retain your stock foglights and quickly going from a core that's plenty big enough for your HTA68 to a core that's just the right size (leaving you no room for a turbo upgrade) or already too small for your turbo by switch to the Talon foglight core.

    Simple math here quick to figure out exactly what dimensions you need to SUPPORT the HTA68 flowing 51lbs/m...

    Your 68HTA is capable of flowing 51lbs/min @ 30psi'ish to get it there. So you've got to convert airflow to cubic feet minute (CFM) and boost pressure to pressure ratio (PR).
    PR = (14.7 + Boost) / 14.7
    CFM = (L x RPM x VE x Pr) / 5660
    So just plug in the info and do the conversions for CFM and PR, here are the numbers for my application.
    PR = (14.7 + 30) / 14.7 = 3.04
    CFM = (2.0 x 6500 x 95% x 3.04) / 5660 = 663.32

    51lbs/min @ 30psi = 663.32CFM @ 3.04 PR
    Now you'll be able to figure out exactly what size of intercooler you'll want for your exact setup, below are the equations.
    Minimum Cross Area = ((CFM / PR) + 12.84) / 11.63
    Intercool Height = (Minimum Cross Area / IC Depth
    Total Volume = (WHP - 50.17) / 0.533
    Intercooler Width = (Total Volume / Minimum Cross Area)
    So just plug in the info (I used 500whp as your goal and a 4" deep IC with that HTA68)
    ((663.32 / 3.04) + 12.84) / 11.63 = 19.87 sq/in (MCA)
    19.87 / 4" = 5" (Height)
    (500 - 50.17) / 0.553 = 813.44 cu/in (Volume)
    813.44 / 19.87 = 41" (Width)​
    A good core size (with no size constraints) for the HTA68 would be 41"W x 5"H x 4"D. To determine that particular cores surface area (SA)...

    SA = 2 (wl+hl+hw)
    = 2 (4"x 41"+ 5"x 41"+ 5"x 4")
    = 778in2 is the minimun to support the HTA68 airflow of 51lbs/m according to that sweet brain numbing equation. That's ONLY to support what your stock frame HTA68 can push through the IC, so if you plan on ever going to a bigger turbo a 778in2 core would be working outside of its efficiency range and would require an upgrade. Or you'll see increased IAT's because it can't cool the charge air, thus increasing knock, lowering peak timing, etc.​

    To give you an idea of what all that means, the VRSF core dimensions are 28.5" x 10" x 3.5", doing the math to figure surface area of that core you'd come up with 839.4in2. Leaves some wiggle room over what the HTA68 is capable of.

    To get this 20"W x 4"D core to have that kind of SA, the custom Talon core (to retain the factory fogs) would have to be ~14.2" tall. The tallest core ETS makes is 12" and that's their big boy, you may want to ask how tall they're making it.

    Once you figure that out plug those numbers in and see how much of a downgrade it is and then re-access if it's worth it to run the stock Talon fog lights.


    Feel free to :heystupid: through the computer screen, my brain hurts too.
     

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  13. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    Just WOW at all that info!!! Now I regret selling the vrsf :ohdamn:. I wanted that sexy fog light fmic look, but now I have some math and thinking to do. Here I thought statistics was bad on Tuesdays LOL.
     
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  14. gofer

    gofer Moderator

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    Selling the VRSF for an ETS isn't a bad decision, they make the best FMIC cores on the market for this platform. Just make sure that if you get one that it can at least perform as well as the kit that it's replacing.
     

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  15. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    According to the ets website the street 26" intercooler has a rating for 650cfm/450hp. Now the email they sent me suggests that the 20" only has a decrease of 50hp per size like the 4" would be good for 500hp; where as, the 26" in 4" would be good for 550hp. Both are 7" by 4".

    Now on the vrsf website they suggest their intercooler has an 1150cfm, which would be like 750hp plus. I don't buy that for a cheap intercooler and most suggest the ETS out performs vrsf.

    Also, I may be doing the math wrong, but that formula suggests that the ETS street intercooler in the 26" x 7" x 3" isn't good enough for the fp 68hta. However, there are members on here running that setup with a fp green which flows more than the 68hta.

    So if that's the case the 20" x 7" x 3.5" should have the same effiencey as the 26" x 7" x 3", at least according to the email I got from ETS. Maybe it's just the way ETS has design their intercooler that's makes them better. Really need to see some logs comparing both the reg. version and talon version.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2016
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  16. gofer

    gofer Moderator

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    You're right that's a good point, ETS's advertised numbers don't follow that equation very well.

    The ETS site advertises as follows...
    ETS street good for 650cfm/450hp, 26" x 7" x 3" // SA = 562in2
    --> 30psi = 663.32 CFM @ 3.04 PR
    ETS race good for 950cfm/650hp, 26" x 10.5 x 3" // SA = 765in2
    --> 50psi = 960 CFM @ 4.4 PR
    ETS short route core 1058cfm/700hp, 26" x 12" x 3" // SA = 852in2
    --> 58psi = 1080 CFM @ 4.95 PR
    A 450hp core (using the equation I posted above) would need to have a SA of 616in2 and ETS' 450hp core has a SA of 562in2 a difference of 54in2. Checking that equation to the other core's that ETS has, both the 950cfm/650hp and 1058cfm/700hp.
    - 960 CFM @ 4.4 PR (650hp) per that equation I used needs a SA of 1087.92in2, roughly a core that measures 30" x 12.5" x 4".
    - 1080 CFM @ 4.95 PR (700hp) per that equation I used needs a SA of 1175.47in2, roughly a core that measures 32.5" x 12.5" x 4".
    I'm going to play with that equation and see if I can manipulate it to get roughly the CFM/HP as ETS' cores are rated and still match the SA of the core's they're using.

    The equation I used to get required IC core size is generic for all platforms, maybe these car's don't need as much IC as that equation requires? :idontknow:

    Good catch though.
     

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  17. gofer

    gofer Moderator

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    The more and more I read into the "math" behind determining proper IC core size the more and more equations I get that don't jive with what I posted OR what ETS rate's their cores for. Those guys do it for a living and we can safely assume between the years of R&D and engineering experience they put into designing their cores I'd say you could take it as truth. If they rate their cores for 450hp/650cfm then I wouldn't question it...

    If they are making you a custom core though, one that's not advertised on the site specifically to fit with the stock Talon fogs, then be sure to ask questions like CFM/horsepower rating and, if they can, pressure drop so you know exactly what you're getting.

    Like I said earlier, you can't go wrong coming from a VRSF to a ETS core just make sure it supports your current setup with a little room to grow.
     

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  18. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    They used to sell the 20" x 7" x 3" for talon owners, it was the street edition. Robert said in the email the 3" is only rated at 400whp, 3.5" for 450whp, and the 4" for 500whp.

    So basically the current street edition 26" x 7" x 3" has the same rating as the talon edition in 20" x 7" x 3.5" for 450whp.

    I did email them if they could do a 20" x 10.5" x 3" and what the rating would be. If not I trust their opinion as well, and if they say talon edition in 4" is good for 500whp. I'll try it to keep the fog lights and maintain good performance.
     
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  19. jamarh85

    jamarh85 Proven Member

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    The ets units are supposed to be so efficient because the Intercooler has interally offset and staggered fins so as air passes through the intercooler it's forced to split multiple times which results in cooler intake air temps. They say vrsf and other cheaper cores are just straight through internal fins that aren't as efficient. Have you noticed any differences in temps or you haven't used it?
     

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  20. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    On CFM for a 20" in a 4" based on 500whp should be around 722cfm. As the street edition has a rating 650cfm/450hp = 1.44cfm/1hp. So I took 500hp x 1.44cfm to get 722. For the Race edition 950cfm/650hp = 1.46cfm/1hp and the ultra short route 1028cfm/700hp = 1.47cfm/1hp. So I'll ask ETS and see what the actual cfm rating for the talon edition is and update when I know the answer.
     
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  21. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    I haven't used it as I only bolted it up and realized the fog lights won't work. So I need to buy a remake of their older version street core.
     
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  22. Type1DSMr

    Type1DSMr Proven Member

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    Here's a photo of the ETS Talon intercooler in 4" with fog lights. 20160527_205828.jpg
     
    Type1DSMr

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  23. familyMAN

    familyMAN Proven Member

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    Looks good Korbin!
     

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  24. Detail

    Detail Supporting VIP

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    Can one of you measure the diameter of the inlet/outlet for me? I'm waiting on ups to ship my fmic and I want to order new connectors. I believe I'll need 2.5 to 2.5 id straight but I'd like to confirm.
     

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