Dual in-tank 255HP's in 2G for Quad fuel pump setup

[50trimgst]

I think this is a great setup just took my head a minute to wrap around it but it totally makes sense especially with the options we had in 2009. Thanks for the idea Tim

 

[twicks69]

You are welcome, it has been a trial and error to make more power from it in the beginning, but I found the flow limitations and made them work better. I cannot wait to throw a fresh engine in the car and start turning on the secondary fuel rail now and go above 1000AWHP; the setup should be able to make around another 200 whp maxed out while still having plenty of duty cycle to work with on the injectors. Here is the last pic with the current rails and stuff on it. I'll fool around with it hopefully later this year when I have time to work on it, and will do some more updates after the new motor is built and in.

 

[OH91awd]

so at one point does one need a secondary set of injectors? ive got 2000cc injectors now on e85 and on gate pressure on the hx40 theyre only at a 58-60% idc at the rev limiter (was set at 8250rpm when we took it to the track for some shake down passes).

 

[twicks69]

If you datalog injector pulse width vs rpm you will be able to calculate that. The equation is your logged pulse width (PW), divided by 120/logged rpm at that pulse width. So,

PW / (120 / RPM) = duty cycle x 100 = percent duty cycle.

For example, PW below of 0.014145 (sometimes your datalogger will show it as a whole number not in milliseconds, like AEM EMS shows the log as 14145, you have to make it mS, so divide by 1000000 = 0.014145) at 7805rpm.

---> .014145 / (120 / 7805) = 0.014145 / .015375 = 0.92 x 100 = 92%

Well, I was fully maxing out the injectors on these pumps (pumps maxed out) when I did the 1020AWHP on the dyno (something like 115% duty cycle ; so pretty much they were open. That was at 45psi base, 48psi boost, on just the primary rail. That was on E85 w/ C16 in a 50/50% mix, which is about 15% less fuel % used than straight E85. So, if you are going to run a similar setup with similar base pressure, you have a safe margin around 800-850AWHP or so on a dynojet. There are so many variables though, so keep that in mind. This combination worked well for my setup. Delta pressure is rail pressure +

Here are log numbers and dyno data. Logs are from 29psi and 40psi, and for reference at 48psi I was at .014145 pulse width @ 7805rpm which is about 92% duty cycle.

At 29psi boost I was at 75% duty cycle making 715AWHP / 530TQ. I was at 93% duty cycle at 40psi boost, around 880AWHP, and I was way past 100% at 48psi boost.


If you are on straight E85, then use high base pressure as your friend to get more out of the fuel injectors. This is why people run mechanical pumps, other than flow, the base pressure can be significantly higher and so the flow rate goes much higher than 2000cc.

a 43.5-45psi base is about 2200cc
a 50psi base is around 2350cc
a 60psi base is around 2575cc
a 70psi base is around 2780cc
a 80psi base is around 2970cc
a 90psi base is around 3140cc

So, if you have the ability to run a higher base pressure and still have enough pump efficiency to flow at high pressures without restriction, you will get more out of your injectors. Mechanical is the way to go if you are trying to go over 1000AWHP while having a lot of room to go further ahead.

So, now if we look at a 92% duty cycle at 40psi boost on 45psi base pressure (if the pump doesn't become the limitation -- lets just talk injector duty cycle theoretical), and you want to reduce duty cycle based on increased base fuel pressures, and the list of cc's vs psi base shown above for an ID2000 injector at 12V-14V bat voltage (let's not even get into 16+V stuff because that is a whole another ball of wax to get more power out of stuff).

a 43.5-45psi base is about 2200cc = ---> = 92%
a 50psi base is around 2350cc --> 2200 / 2350 * 92 = 86%
a 60psi base is around 2575cc --> 2200/2575 * 92 = 78%
a 70psi base is around 2780cc --> 2200/2780 * 92 = 72%
a 80psi base is around 2970cc --> 2200/2970 * 92 = 68%
a 90psi base is around 3140cc --> 2200/3140 * 92 = 64%

This is the benefit of a mechanical pump. Linear flow vs pressure change. Electric pumps don't have this and have flow drop vs. pressure. It's better on the new technology pumps, but mechanical are still higher flowing and linear when the whole setup is installed and working correctly.

 

[smbgsx]

I'm only running one 450lph on this dual hanger, but here's my setup

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[smbgsx]

I didn't read the whole thread, sorry . Obviously I should have known you have seen the full blown setup, as I've been following your build for like 2 years.

 

[OH91awd]

If you datalog injector pulse width vs rpm you will be able to calculate that. The equation is your logged pulse width (PW), divided by 120/logged rpm at that pulse width. So,

PW / (120 / RPM) = duty cycle x 100 = percent duty cycle.

For example, PW below of 0.014145 (sometimes your datalogger will show it as a whole number not in milliseconds, like AEM EMS shows the log as 14145, you have to make it mS, so divide by 1000000 = 0.014145) at 7805rpm.

---> .014145 / (120 / 7805) = 0.014145 / .015375 = 0.92 x 100 = 92%

Well, I was fully maxing out the injectors on these pumps (pumps maxed out) when I did the 1020AWHP on the dyno (something like 115% duty cycle ; so pretty much they were open. That was at 45psi base, 48psi boost, on just the primary rail. That was on E85 w/ C16 in a 50/50% mix, which is about 15% less fuel % used than straight E85. So, if you are going to run a similar setup with similar base pressure, you have a safe margin around 800-850AWHP or so on a dynojet. There are so many variables though, so keep that in mind. This combination worked well for my setup. Delta pressure is rail pressure +

Here are log numbers and dyno data. Logs are from 29psi and 40psi, and for reference at 48psi I was at .014145 pulse width @ 7805rpm which is about 92% duty cycle.

At 29psi boost I was at 75% duty cycle making 715AWHP / 530TQ. I was at 93% duty cycle at 40psi boost, around 880AWHP, and I was way past 100% at 48psi boost.


If you are on straight E85, then use high base pressure as your friend to get more out of the fuel injectors. This is why people run mechanical pumps, other than flow, the base pressure can be significantly higher and so the flow rate goes much higher than 2000cc.

a 43.5-45psi base is about 2200cc
a 50psi base is around 2350cc
a 60psi base is around 2575cc
a 70psi base is around 2780cc
a 80psi base is around 2970cc
a 90psi base is around 3140cc

So, if you have the ability to run a higher base pressure and still have enough pump efficiency to flow at high pressures without restriction, you will get more out of your injectors. Mechanical is the way to go if you are trying to go over 1000AWHP while having a lot of room to go further ahead.

So, now if we look at a 92% duty cycle at 40psi boost on 45psi base pressure (if the pump doesn't become the limitation -- lets just talk injector duty cycle theoretical), and you want to reduce duty cycle based on increased base fuel pressures, and the list of cc's vs psi base shown above for an ID2000 injector at 12V-14V bat voltage (let's not even get into 16+V stuff because that is a whole another ball of wax to get more power out of stuff).

a 43.5-45psi base is about 2200cc = ---> = 92%
a 50psi base is around 2350cc --> 2200 / 2350 * 92 = 86%
a 60psi base is around 2575cc --> 2200/2575 * 92 = 78%
a 70psi base is around 2780cc --> 2200/2780 * 92 = 72%
a 80psi base is around 2970cc --> 2200/2970 * 92 = 68%
a 90psi base is around 3140cc --> 2200/3140 * 92 = 64%

This is the benefit of a mechanical pump. Linear flow vs pressure change. Electric pumps don't have this and have flow drop vs. pressure. It's better on the new technology pumps, but mechanical are still higher flowing and linear when the whole setup is installed and working correctly.

I wouldn't think my pump would be and issue (magnafuel mp-4303). this is a ton of great info though . but ive been kind of looking at the next motor/ turbo setup im working on (10.7:1 aluminum rod, borg s369 twin scroll). just want to make sure I don't have an issue running out of fuel.

 

[twicks69]

I wouldn't think my pump would be and issue (magnafuel mp-4303). this is a ton of great info though . but ive been kind of looking at the next motor/ turbo setup im working on (10.7:1 aluminum rod, borg s369 twin scroll). just want to make sure I don't have an issue running out of fuel.

Being that you have a very capable pump with a pressure range of 20-120psi, you can always increase your base pressure to get more out of the setup as well.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Just out of curiosity only, I would think that 4 pumps would heat the fuel up a bit more (although I wouldn't know honestly), so just wondering if you're doing anything to cool the fuel back down? Nevermind what I'm doing for my fuel pump setup because I DID read the entire post and know you could care less what my opinions are. Haha!

 

[twicks69]

Just out of curiosity only, I would think that 4 pumps would heat the fuel up a bit more (although I wouldn't know honestly), so just wondering if you're doing anything to cool the fuel back down? Nevermind what I'm doing for my fuel pump setup because I DID read the entire post and know you could care less what my opinions are. Haha!

It never has been a problem for the last 9 years.