Dual in-tank 255HP's in 2G for Quad fuel pump setup

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

If he plans on running e98 do you honestly think 2intank fuel pumps are going to support 8-900hp?

Running a two in-tank pump setup should yield better flow than one in-tank and one inline pump setup.

Think about it...

With two intank pumps you get exactly double the flow than what one 255 pump can put out. Each pump feeds its own feed line and rail/end of rail= double the flow.

With two pumps, one in-tank and one inline, you are still limited by how much fuel the intank pump can supply to the inline pump. If anything it's only meant to keep fuel pressures up during high boost/demand runs.

So, yes. I can see how only two in-tank pumps should be able to support 8-900hp on e98.

 

[adrian2627]

I read somewhere here from one of the vendors something about a mechanical fuel pump. It eleminates the need for electrical fuel pump and will support any horsepower. It bolts on by the cams with an adaptor plate. Im going to try to find that link for you

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I read somewhere here from one of the vendors something about a mechanical fuel pump. It eleminates the need for electrical fuel pump and will support any horsepower. It bolts on by the cams with an adaptor plate. Im going to try to find that link for you

Have you considered using the aeromotive pump with the adapter bracket that magnus sells so the pump runs off of the cam gear?

Yes I have for several years now, and this is not an option I am entertaining. Thanks.

I don't think that's something he even want's to hear about. He's said that several times in this thread that he's only looking for ideas on how to get two pumps in the 2g tank. Also, I'm sure he knows about the mechanical fuel pump bracket that magnus sells. But, just for other people's reference: Magnus Motorsports - Fuel Products (Last item on page.)

 

[twicks69]

Running a two in-tank pump setup should yield better flow than one in-tank and one inline pump setup.

Think about it...

With two intank pumps you get exactly double the flow than what one 255 pump can put out. Each pump feeds its own feed line and rail/end of rail= double the flow.

With two pumps, one in-tank and one inline, you are still limited by how much fuel the intank pump can supply to the inline pump. If anything it's only meant to keep fuel pressures up during high boost/demand runs.

So, yes. I can see how only two in-tank pumps should be able to support 8-900hp on e98.

This is the main reason for dual in-tank pumps with dual in-line pumps.

Gosh people.

 

[viperlp01]

twicks.. good luck man. Did you get onto the link forums?? If not pm me...

 

[twicks69]

If he plans on running e98 do you honestly think 2intank fuel pumps are going to support 8-900hp?

Just so everyone is on the same page as me....


I AM USING TWO IN-TANK PUMPS IN PARALLEL WITH TWO IN-LINE PUMPS IN SERIES ON INDIVIDUAL AN-6 FEED LINES, AND AN AN-8 RETURN LINE


This setup will easily capacitate 2000HP of fuel on race gas. It will easily capacitate 1300HP on E98.

I am intending on running dual fuel rails next year with 1350cc primaries and 1650cc (or larger) secondaries with each dual-fuel-pump feed running to individual fuel rails, and both rails then having AN-6 returns to the AFPR with an AN-8 return line back to the tank.


With that said, yet again....Who has pictures, or direct experience with installing twin fuel pumps in a 2G AWD gas tank utilizing a 2G AWD fuel pickup assembly? How did you do it, describing in detail, attaching pictures, etc.? What did you do with the stock siphon tube to handle overrun at low throttle/idle so that it could bypass enough fuel?


I really don't ask much from the DSM community, and I give a helluva lot of my time to it helping ANYONE with their problems. Can you guys give me a bit more to work with other than telling me to get different pumps, or that my idea is stupid. I do understand that there is nearly no one here that has ever made the power I am at (Over 1000HP at the crank currently, and shooting for around 1200-1300HP at the crank on high boost) on a 2G AWD DSM. I know I am asking alot from you guys, but there has to be someone with experience in this circumstance. Yes, I think outside the box, and I try new things -- hence doing all of this on a 7-bolt, doing the 5-speed, doing the quad fuel pump setup, and all the other custom stuff I have done on the car over the years. If you think it is dumb, well, you have never done it to understand how cool it really is.


Thanks for dealing with my frustrations and understanding where I am coming from here.

 

[twicks69]

PM sent.

Eric, thanks for the help getting me on the DSMLink forums, I will jump on there and so some reading!

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Like I said in my previous post Turboglenn's install is the only one that I have seen like this.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/322760-dual-wallys-look-what-i-made-today.html

 

[twicks69]

Like I said in my previous post Turboglenn's install is the only one that I have seen like this.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/322760-dual-wallys-look-what-i-made-today.html

Unfortunately, the 2G FWD has a completely different fuel pickup assembly and fuel tank because of the lack of driveshaft. The FWD pickup assembly has substantially more space to work with to capacitate dual fuel pumps with very little modification.

The AWD pickup assembly is shorter by a good amount, and has very little space to work with in the fuel tank and on the fuel pickup assembly due to the saddle fuel tank design.

 

[turbosax2]

ECMTuning User Support Forums

 

[twicks69]

Thanks to Eric and Brian, I am now on DSMLink forums and reading up on a few people that have taken on this project with some pretty good information pertaining to the twin pump install, along with the siphon modification stuff.

THANKS!

 

[2gGSX]

Have you considered the amperage draw from running 4 pumps? Something else to think about while you're designing your system.

 

[twicks69]

Have you considered the amperage draw from running 4 pumps? Something else to think about while you're designing your system.

That has been fully considered, from wiring, relays, to battery and alternator consumption requirements. It has been fully thought out.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

If you're looking into investing into this kind of setup, honestly, why don't you look into just adding a fuel cell to the car? It would make this MUCH easier, just running external pumps. Then you can run -10 to one side and keep an OEM style rail. You really don't need to do this complicated of a setup, especially with the limitations on space in a 2g.

 

[turbo addict]

If you're looking into investing into this kind of setup, honestly, why don't you look into just adding a fuel cell to the car? It would make this MUCH easier, just running external pumps. Then you can run -10 to one side and keep an OEM style rail. You really don't need to do this complicated of a setup, especially with the limitations on space in a 2g.

I believe that the reason is that he already has half of the set up and is doubling it. so he is basically runnin two fuel systems 2 rails and 8 injectors and I would think that only using 1 regulator. I think that he wants help working this idea out and not have everyone convince him to change his mind.

I am trying to decide what to do. either something like this or a mechanical pump. The HUGE difference is that I do not have any fuel stuff yet so the price difference is not that different than the mechanical set up.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I haven't looked at the NHRA rules but with the times that you run, does it ever become mandatory to use a fuel cell?

 

[TRBOBLU]

well, the gas shifting is normally taken care of by the byass tube/check tube that feeds off the stock return line in the main pump pickup assembly, shifting it over to the driver-side. Inside the driver-side is a tube that goes down inside the tank and acts as a siphon.

I am going to contact Full-Blown and see if they are capable of making a custom twin-intank setup utilizing two individual feed lines and the AN-8 return line, while retaining the bypass line.

The key thing I don't know about the driver's side is if there is an anti-slosh baffling on that side of the tank, or if the depth is capable of capacitating another pickup assembly.

I would also like to know if the Full Blown one utilizes a fuel level indicator or warning light indicator or the pressure bypass plumbing from the stock pickup assembly.

Update:

Well, I just spoke with Paul at Full Blown, and he is looking into the feasibility of making a twin-pump hanger that utilizes individual feed lines. He thinks it is doable by making another feed fitting on the opposite end of the assembly from the existing feed line with some CNC program modifications during fab, and then using a 180-degree hose fitting to wrap it around the pickup assembly to get it running by the other feed line.

I will have more info when I get it from him.

I think Full Blown will be able to do what you need. When I worked with them to have them make me the first prototype 2g piece they were excellent in accomadating everything I needed. Granted, it did take months to accomplish so I would encourage you to be patient but Im sure they will be able to make what you need. They work closely with whoever machines their pieces so they have the ability to change CAD programs and run different parts.

 

[n1lhp]

Are you still seeking the answer to this problem? If so email me @ [email protected] I do not have the three days required to type the answer.



Doug

 

[Gamble97]

Are you still seeking the answer to this problem? If so email me @ [email protected] I do not have the three days required to type the answer.



Doug

But you can type it in an email

 

[n1lhp]

I don't want to post my home phone number on the web. Guess I should have been more clear.

 

[Gamble97]

We have a pm function.

 

[twicks69]

I had a custom Full Blown sender assembly produced with individual -6AN feeds and a -8AN return. I have all the parts to do the setup, other than the time to do it. I will complete it this fall or winter, as I am also looking into dropping the rear subframe and gas tank if I go with Andrew Kisner's 2G bolt-in fuel cell.

Doug, thank you for the response! If I do need any help with the pump install/setup, I will shoot you an e-mail or a PM.

Thank you,

 

[twicks69]

I forgot to post a follow up; but this was all completed a long time ago -

I ran into restrictions with the 1000cc primary injectors with the stock full blown pickup assembly at 766AWHP, then restrictions with the stock full blown pickup assembly at 779AWHP with 1350's, then made flow adjustments to the pickup assembly and got it to 835AWHP, then I later changed to a fuel cell with the modified full blown in-tank pickup assembly on 2200cc injectors and made 1020AWHP at 48psi.

My full blown pickup assembly is modified to go in my fuel cell with the siphon assembly and fuel level assembly removed, then the fuel feeds from the pumps that are side-flowing out of the pickup assembly were plugged and I drilled and tapped the top of the pickup assembly to put in straight adaptor fittings as a top feed from each in-tank fuel pump to 90* -6AN hose end fittings to the fuel feed lines to each Walbro 255HP in-line GSL392 fuel pump with -6AN adaptor fittings, to in-line fuel filters, to -6AN feed to each fuel rail. Each fuel rail return line is -6AN going to the fuel pressure regulator at a base pressure of 45psi, to -8AN return line to the fuel cell.

The fuel pumps are triple-relay wired with a primary switching relay (#1), then a primary fuel pump assembly relay (primary rail in-tank and in-line pumps #2) and a secondary fuel pump assembly relay (secondary rail in-tank and in-line pumps #3).

Originally when I was running all 4 pumps full time to a single rail I had the #1 relay two #87 wires being the signal wire turning on the #86 pins of #2 and #3 relays simultaneously. Since I have the AEM turn on the secondary pump relay as the signal wire, the wiring off the primary #1 relay is only using 1x #87 signal to the #2 relay #86 pin, and the #3 relay is getting signal from the ECU to the #86 pin to turn on the secondary pumps.


I use Signal-Stat 192 relays, with a 60A primary fuse to #1 relay #30 pin, and then I have in-line 30A fuses for the power to each #2 and #3 relay #30 pin power wires.

#30 = power wire from battery (fused)
#85 = ground wire
#86 = signal wire (I used the MPI relay as the signal source at key-on; fuel pump signal wire)
#87 / #87 (2 on each relay - Signal-Stat 192 relay) to power (+) of each fuel pump attached

The power is 8-gauge and grounds are 8-gauge from all relays to a 4-gauge chassis ground.


The fuel tank pickup assembly plumbing pictures are showing the first version of the side-outlet fittings that ended up being a flow restriction and was plugged and tapped for top feed outlets to 90* hose fittings which ended up resolving the flow restriction.



Everything is still running strong all these years later.

 

[bling5tatus]

My vote would have been for cam driven mechanical pump because it's easier, safer, and won't have the power draw of running 4 pumps.... or fiddling with progressive pump setups. Magnus makes the bracket to bolt this on to your car and there are several different pumps to choose from.

 

[twicks69]

Well, when I made the setup nearly a decade ago there were a handful of people using mechanicals on DSMs in the world. The setup I went with has been reliable, cheap and easy to maintain. And I have a 200A Saturn alternator on the car.