ECMlink dialing in my tune

[enriquez2000]

Dude, you keep screwing with the MAFcomp and throwing things way off. Once again, you can't make large adjustments from cell to cell and expect your AFR's to line up. It's just not going to happen. Between 700 and 800hz you jump almost 10%. And, there's no way you need a +33% adjustment after swapping in a set of colder plugs. If you really need to adjust that much, something is screwed up. Get rid of that garbage MAFcomp table and plug the last table we worked on back in, then post another log. You were really close to having things dialed in before, and now you're worse off than you were when you first started.

I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm legitimately trying to help. You problem is you're trying to do too much all at once. You're trying to adjust 5 things at the same time, rather than getting one thing perfect, and then moving on to the next. Why swap to a colder plug when you haven't even worked out the tune on the set of plugs you have in the car? If you keep changing variables as you're trying to dial in your tune, this thread will go on forever.

Keep it simple. We need to dial in your airflow. Once that is good, pick a boost level, and a manageable fuel table. Once you decided on those, go out for a drive and pull timing and add fuel where needed to combat knock. For timing and fuel, you can do them in reverse order if you'd like, it's whatever. But neither are done before airflow is right. It's the cornerstone of an accurate tune.

Ill plug it back in tomorrow... but everything went way off after the plugs... not aure why that would have happened but it did.. log will post in the morning

 

[GST with PSI]

Sounds good, man. Just take it slow and one step at a time. If you're going to make adjustments, make them in small increments, and then do a few back to back pulls before you make more changes. If your results aren't repeatable between pulls when you don't make changes, you make have an underlying issue with the car. You should be able to make a change, and then do a few pulls that almost mirror each other. Good luck.

 

[enriquez2000]

just so you can see as i got it ironed out a bit on the drive home I had to raise things significantly. and the only variable change was the pkugs and wires...

 

[enriquez2000]

old mafcomp new plugs.. I really have no idea why the mafcomp is so off after just changing plugs and wires unless the Ngk iridium 6s are junk or my wires werent as good as I thought... the log seems to want 20-30percent more adjustment and even my idle doesnt match up the way it used to.

 

[GST with PSI]

just so you can see as i got it ironed out a bit on the drive home I had to raise things significantly. and the only variable change was the pkugs and wires...

This log actually looks decent. I don't have a clue why a colder plug would prompt such a significant change. It leads me to believe there's an underlying issue. Not to mention, your knock is still there even with a colder plug. I'd go back to the config you had during this pull (log.2015.01.05-04.elg), or figure out why the cold plugs screwed everything up. Or, just swap the 6's back in and avoid redoing all the work you'd done previously. The MAFcomp still needs some work in the log.2015.01.05-04.elg. Do your best to get it dialed in better.

Also, I noticed you have your global fuel set for 600cc injectors. Any reason why that is?

Lastly, I'd swap in the more conservative timing map like the one I posted here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/dialing-in-my-tune.488539/page-2#post-153485575

 

[enriquez2000]

This log actually looks decent. I don't have a clue why a colder plug would prompt such a significant change. It leads me to believe there's an underlying issue. Not to mention, your knock is still there even with a colder plug. I'd go back to the config you had during this pull (log.2015.01.05-04.elg), or figure out why the cold plugs screwed everything up. Or, just swap the 6's back in and avoid redoing all the work you'd done previously. The MAFcomp still needs some work in the log.2015.01.05-04.elg. Do your best to get it dialed in better.

Also, I noticed you have your global fuel set for 600cc injectors. Any reason why that is?

Lastly, I'd swap in the more conservatibe timing map like the one I posted here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/dialing-in-my-tune.488539/page-2#post-153485575

It should have been set at 550 injectors... hmm i know i initially set it up that way. Ill have to go back and fix that.

I swapped the original timing map back in with hopes the colder plug would kill knock.. and it s may once i get afrs right, but ill put that conservative timing back.

What underlying issue could possibly affect the afrs so bad with a colder plug? Boost leak? Its possible i sprung one after wot and boost being raised to 18.. i will test it again this weeken and keep working the mafcomp table.. is it possible my wires or plugs were that crappy before? Ive been told iridiums suck but this is beyond suck

 

[GST with PSI]

Wait, you're using iridium plugs? If so, personally, I'd throw them in the trash. Everyone has their own opinion about plugs, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt...NGK copper cores or nothing.

Honestly, copper cores have a proven track record and WORK in the 4G63T. Not to mention, they are cheap as hell. I pull, inspect, and change mine about every other oil change, so it's a no-brainer to me.

At your boost level NGK BPR7ES would work great. You could even get away with BPR6ES if you wanted. Alternatively, BR7ES and BR6ES are the non-projected tip versions of the NGK copper cores, and you could give either of those a shot if you are experiencing ignition breakup or spark blowout (which you shouldn't be). Just my .02

Fix your global fuel, dial in your MAF, and swap in the more conservative timing map. I think you'll be close to where you want to be after doing those things.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Yes iridiums suck . Just fix the tune and stick with the ngk's.

 

[enriquez2000]

Wait, you're using iridium plugs? If so, personally, I'd throw them in the trash. Everyone has their own opinion about plugs, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt...NGK copper cores or nothing.

Honestly, copper cores have a proven track record and WORK in the 4G63T. Not to mention, they are cheap as hell. I pull, inspect, and change mine about every other oil change, so it's a no-brainer to me.

At your boost level NGK BPR7ES would work great. You could even get away with BPR6ES if you wanted. Alternatively, BR7ES and BR6ES are the non-projected tip versions of the NGK copper cores, and you could give either of those a shot if you are experiencing ignition breakup or spark blowout (which you shouldn't be). Just my .02

Fix your global fuel, dial in your MAF, and swap in the more conservative timing map. I think you'll be close to where you want to be after doing those things.

I WAS on iridiums... now bpr7es.. maybe thats the difference?

 

[Dsmkauai]

Ya I know it's possible its the differnece. Fresh plugs and wires are always a good thing if you ask me. What kind of wideband are you using? Maybe it needs calibration.

 

[enriquez2000]

Ya I know it's possible its the differnece. Fresh plugs and wires are always a good thing if you ask me. What kind of wideband are you using? Maybe it needs calibration.

I got that MTXL.. remember? it was calibrated when it was put in not too long ago. Ill keep pluggin away at the mafcomp and put the less aggressive timing and proper injector size back in...

*** i also just went back through the logs.. Somewhere that got changed and I dont know why. Back in the beginnning it at least said 554 and 43psi fuel.. fuel pressure somehow changed as well.. only changed things by .4% global but wierd...

 

[enriquez2000]

After a few setbacks here I am again.. close.. I know that we dont want to see spikes like I have in my graph but it seams to be wht my car is wanting. Even still it looks like it wants me to raise 7-8-900 even more and drop out some on 4-500. I wasnt getting much knock but after a dozen or so pulls this morning the motor was pretty hot. Im sure I still need to take timing out.. What do you think?

 

[Dsmkauai]

I think after abit link adj the fuel inj to what it actually sees. Which is why urs said 554. I've seen mine do that to after a few good pulls.

 

[enriquez2000]

I think after abit link adj the fuel inj to what it actually sees. Which is why urs said 554. I've seen mine do that to after a few good pulls.

What do you think of the tune? Its getting there. Im sure the afpr is going to mess it up but no choice.

 

[GST with PSI]

The log doesn't look horrible...But jesus, the MAFcomp does. From 1600HZ and up you're spot on. Below that it's a $hit show.

Are you in 3rd gear during the entire pull, or is the car shifting in all these logs? Looking at this log specifically, below 5,230 RPM and above 6,399, is the car in 3rd the whole time? If not, describe to me is going on with the shifts.

You fuel is still set for 600cc injectors at 37psi of fuel pressure. Not sure if these values are intended or accurate, so are you going to address these?

 

[enriquez2000]

The log doesn't look horrible...But jesus, the MAFcomp does. From 1600HZ and up you're spot on. Below that it's a $hit show.

Are you in 3rd gear during the entire pull, or is the car shifting in all these logs? Looking at this log specifically, below 5,230 RPM and above 6,399, is the car in 3rd the whole time?

You fuel is still set for 600cc injectors at 37psi of fuel pressure. Not sure if these values are intended or accurate, so are you going to address these?

I dont know how you are seeing those numbers.. of 600cc and 37psi... on my computer it self adjusts from 550 to 554 and ahows 43psi... ???

Its an auto so i have to just punch the thing from a roll... it downshifts of course once i do that...

The mafcomp i adjusted one number at a time until the table brought the afr log in line... it still wants me to add more to 7-900....

Maybe you have a reason why... im playing the change one slider at a time game to get where the log is now... i would actually love to aee a nice smooth mafcomp

 

[GST with PSI]

The log you just posted (log-2015-01-16-01-elg.253605) shows a Global fuel adjustment of -24.6%. If you click on the calculator, you'll see it's set for 597cc @ 37 PSI. However, now that I have the other numbers you just mentioned, it works out to the same global fuel adjustment, so it seems you're good there as long as your current base fp is indeed 43psi.

Excuse my ignorance, but I've never owned an automatic DSM in my life. Is there not a way to manually shift it into 3rd gear?

 

[enriquez2000]

See on my computer it shows 554 and 43psi(auto regulator) for -26.4.... least we are on the same page

3rd gear is D... i can turn overdrive off so no 4th.. but if i mash it for wot its gonna downshift to 2 first. .. honestly 1st time trying to tune an auto.. my honda hits 130mph in 3rd.. new to me

You can see from my afr its making me drag my mafcomp sliders to weird places.. not sure why.

 

[GST with PSI]

I think the gear changes are throwing things off.

Take my car for example; if I start a pull at 2500 in 3rd, the car doesn't always respond well. Because of the high engine load at such a low RPM in 3rd gear, the car would randomly knock. In reality, you're probably never going to be WOT in 3rd gear at 2500 RPM during any performance related driving scenario. The only real reason to start at such a low RPM in 3rd gear is to collect a greater range of readings for your log to tune with. If I didn't make a single change, but started my pull closer to 3k, the car would never knock. I believe you're seeing a similar occurrence in your log at high RPM where your car is shifting from 3rd into overdrive, which drastically increases load and causes some knock up top.

I wonder if there's a sweet spot where you can floor the car without kicking down into 2nd. Most guys I know with autos run shift boxes, so I doubt they worry about such an issue like the one you're currently dealing with. See if you can find a point where you can floor it from a roll and stay out of second gear. In addition, make sure OD is off so you get 3rd gear only.

 

[enriquez2000]

That makes perfect sense because i can see where it shifted in od on this log causing knock.

Ill have to play with it some more.

 

[GST with PSI]

Yeah, exactly my thoughts. The overall idea here being; If you can isolate the pull to 3rd gear alone it will give us a better reference point to make adjustments from. It's hard to tell what's ACTUALLY happening when the car is shifting and doing all kinds of other stuff. As the car shifts, load changes, airflow changes, etc. With all these variables changing all at once, it's hard to get a good baseline to work with.

Now you see why people prefer to tune on a dyno

 

[enriquez2000]

Im going to have to play with the shift points.. would be nice if could throw a shift box in temporarily... its a dd or id do it permanently. ..

 

[Calan]

After reading through this, a few thoughts....

First, kuddos to Brett for all the help and advice he's given the OP; it's spot on.

Second, this thread is a good example of what happens when people confuse calibration with tuning. See below:

I've said this before, but this seems like a good place to say it again; there is a big difference between "tuning" and "calibration"...but most people combine the two and end up going around in that big circle I mentioned up there ^^^^.

"Tuning" is easy and quick. "Instead of an AFR of 11.5:1 and 10* of timing, let's try 12* of timing and an AFR of 12.0:1 and see if power goes up or down." That's it. Plug in some different AFR, timing, and boost numbers, and see if you get positive results. Piece of cake.

So why is it so damn difficult? It's because most people spend very little time on calibration, and end up blindly tweaking things without having a solid reference to compare to. Even if they get lucky and stumble onto a combination that runs great, repeating it under different conditions is almost impossible.

Calibration is very time-consuming, and about as much fun as watching paint dry... unless you are a perfectionist and fascinated by what lies in the details. But it pays off big time once you start to really tune for more power or better mileage. Once your fuel flow is known, and airflow is dialed in... then you can simply tell the ECU "lets try this" and then see what happens.

For example, let's say your airflow and fuel flow are nicely calibrated, and you change some AFR targets from 11.5:1 to 12.0:1 in the AFR DA table, and increase the ECU boost control to 25psi. Your boost gauge then shows 25psi, AFRatioEst is 12.0:1, your wideband gauge reads 12.0:1, the wideband in Link shows 12.0:1, and you see what happens to the horsepower and torque curve. If it's all good, you save the log so you can load it up at a later date and get similar predictable results.

Or you can go this route...

"My AFRatioEst at WOT is 12.0:1, but my wideband is showing 12.5:1 in ECMLink at 5000 rpms and the gauge is showing about 11.5:1. (Combined fuel trim is usually around -8%). My boost gauge is bouncing around, but seems to be at about 22psi. I think my injectors are 680s, but I'm not really sure. I'm getting a lot of knock, but not sure why. I moved the fuel sliders and it seemed to help, but should I add more fuel?"

That ^ is the tuning equivalent of the proverbial Chinese fire drill, and could have been pulled from almost any thread on "tuning" issues that pops up (it wasn't; any resemblance to actual persons is purely coincidental . The only problem this poor make-believe guy has is that nothing is calibrated, so nobody can (or ever will be able to) figure out what's going on. He's so far away from being ready to truly tune his engine that it isn't even funny.

Spend the time (hour after hour if needed) on calibration and getting accurate numbers to plug in wherever possible, and learn to think of it as a separate process from tuning. Do the calibration once and do it correctly...and then you can easily "tune" to your heart's content.

To recap:

1). Get the car mechanically sound. That is what the list in the first post is intended for.

2). Get the air and fuel calibrated. This means setting the fuel parameters to reflect your actual fuel flow, and using MAFComp (or SD table) to reflect the airflow entering the engine.

At this point, you shouldn't have to do anything else with MAFComp or the fuel parameters again unless you physically change something that requires it... like larger injectors, different turbo, etc. If you are going in circles at this point, go back to step #1 and try to figure out the problem.

BTW - A change in spark plugs should never require a change to MAFComp. Different plugs can affect the resulting AFR, but not the amount of air flowing through the engine. Spark plug changes are normally used for "fine tuning"; compensation for different fuels or to prevent spark blowout. Stick some plain old NGK BPR6ES or 7ES at around .025" gap in there and move on. You shouldn't be having spark blowout issues, because you aren't running high boost/HP right now since you aren't calibrated yet.... right?

As for the knock, lower the boost until you get the air and fuel calibrated. Then gradually increase boost, and if knock comes on...

3). Start "tuning": use the DA fuel and timing tables to adjust the ECU for better power, no knock, better mileage, etc.

 

[enriquez2000]

After reading through this, a few thoughts....

First, kuddos to Brett for all the help and advice he's given the OP; it's spot on.

Second, this thread is a good example of what happens when people confuse calibration with tuning. See below:





To recap:

1). Get the car mechanically sound. That is what the list in the first post is intended for.

2). Get the air and fuel calibrated. This means setting the fuel parameters to reflect your actual fuel flow, and using MAFComp (or SD table) to reflect the airflow entering the engine.

At this point, you shouldn't have to do anything else with MAFComp or the fuel parameters again unless you physically change something that requires it... like larger injectors, different turbo, etc. If you are going in circles at this point, go back to step #1 and try to figure out the problem.

BTW - A change in spark plugs should never require a change to MAFComp. Different plugs can affect the resulting AFR, but not the amount of air flowing through the engine. Spark plug changes are normally used for "fine tuning"; compensation for different fuels or to prevent spark blowout. Stick some plain old NGK BPR6ES or 7ES at around .025" gap in there and move on. You shouldn't be having spark blowout issues, because you aren't running high boost/HP right now since you aren't calibrated yet.... right?

As for the knock, lower the boost until you get the air and fuel calibrated. Then gradually increase boost, and if knock comes on...

3). Start "tuning": use the DA fuel and timing tables to adjust the ECU for better power, no knock, better mileage, etc.

Very good post.. and i did find out after doing a friends boost leak test and seeing what happened to his... i did mine again and my fpr was blowing bubbles... so i was having to add fuel to match the lack of a 1 to 1 raise with boost. Stupid...

Im pretty close to having it nailed now. . Ill throw a pull up tomorrow. It looks better when i can actually get a good pull without a downshift. The downshift throws off my 7-900hz.. if it doesnt shift its pretty smooth now. I just didnt want to post a new one yet.

I also get no knock unless it shifts into over drive.. with that off it is good to go.. unless im on pull 12 for the ride into work and then its not happy. I need an fmic with the 16g

 

[Calan]

I also get no knock unless it shifts into over drive.. with that off it is good to go

Which makes perfect sense. Knock increases with engine load (or timing advance), and unless you are cruising at a nice even speed on perfectly flat ground (and not counting launches, passes, etc)...overdrive puts the most load on the engine, especially when it first shifts into it.

Once you get everything ironed out, you should be able to get rid of that OD knock with a little tuning