Crower 272 cams

[2g4me]

Ok so i just recently installed a set of Crower 272 cams on my friends 2g, everything went fairly smooth, other mods include a big FMIC, precision 650's or 660's i cant remember which, big 16g set at 25psi with a Halman ES MBC, 3" exhaust and SAFC. Car starts fine, idles and drives fine, but from a dead stop the car falls on its face for a second before it wants to go. Seems to be a bit more turbo lag and when it goes into boost, theres power, but NOTHING like it was before using the stock cams, its still hitting 25lbs but its like something is holding the car back, occasionally it will scream when floored but mostly just has the mentioned issue. No boost leaks, tried a different MAF, replaced plugs (BPR7ES) since they were a bit old as well as wires all to no avail. What could be the issue here? Nothing changed other than the cams and timing is dead on. No logger or anything, just the SAFC, AFR's are between 10.5 to 12 @ WOT.

 

[rx7ttlm]

Sounds tune related, if you were running speed density I would say check your tip in values, or fuel curve. Check to see if your getting a lean/ rich bog condition.

 

[dsm_92_fwd]

My untuned 97 had this problem when I installed DKS272s. Made driveability kind of a pain but it was because the lope on the cam. Once the car got higher RPM's it would scream and pull its face off.

 

[honda_burner]

Subscribed. I was going to order a set of Crower's this week. Want to see how this turns out.

 

[perks563]

OP, with those mods, shouldn't you want to use one step colder plugs, the BPR8ES's?

Edit: Man, it's too early in the morning for me. 7's are one step colder!

 

[honda_burner]

Perks!!!! Hey when are you putting your D.K.S.'s in?

 

[Black-Out]

Sounds pretty typical of Bryan Crower cams actually.....They are peaky cams that like a rpm rev limit above 8000 revs. anything below that and they tend to kind of hold you back if you're not running compression beyond8.5:1 (on 9.0:1 engines the car behaves more like you'd expect it to with those cams) A better set of cams would have been HKS Assemetric 268/272 or Kelford 272's. The Kelford cams have better street manners at stock compression ratios and that could be due to better lobe seperation at that extended duration and lift.

William-

 

[BogusSVO]

2g4me.... Are they Crower or Brian Crower cams?

Black out... first time I have heard of BC cams being peaky....

Ypu may want to read this...
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...est-delta-hks-272-delta-k272-bc-272-cams.html


Also with the Kelford cams, you have to go to a Beehive spring set up, so add about $400

 

[perks563]

Perks!!!! Hey when are you putting your D.K.S.'s in?

You know, I saw Westfield and a purple 2ga in your avatar, but it didn't hit me .

Well, that depends. I have 40k on my current timing belt - so do I do it the right way and put in a new t-belt and all related parts (the right way) or just throw the cams in? I'm HEAVILY towards doing it the right way, but don't want to spend the money right now. We'll see what happens tho. Right now, I'm still trying to dial in my VE tables as best as I can.

And read this, I studied this trying to decide between 264/272 and 272/272:
http://amsperformance.com/camtest.php

 

[honda_burner]

Thanks perks

 

[2g4me]

Sounds pretty typical of Bryan Crower cams actually.....They are peaky cams that like a rpm rev limit above 8000 revs. anything below that and they tend to kind of hold you back if you're not running compression beyond8.5:1 (on 9.0:1 engines the car behaves more like you'd expect it to with those cams) A better set of cams would have been HKS Assemetric 268/272 or Kelford 272's. The Kelford cams have better street manners at stock compression ratios and that could be due to better lobe seperation at that extended duration and lift.

William-

These arent Brian Crower cams, there Crower, 2 different companies. Crower 272's are equivalent to HKS 272's.

Sounds tune related, if you were running speed density I would say check your tip in values, or fuel curve. Check to see if your getting a lean/ rich bog condition.

I thought it could be tune related, no SD here but we adjusted the SAFC and still having the same issue. AFR's show good via wideband, not much if any different from the stock cams. so theres no lean/rich condition for it to "bog".

2g4me.... Are they Crower or Brian Crower cams?

Black out... first time I have heard of BC cams being peaky....

Ypu may want to read this...
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...est-delta-hks-272-delta-k272-bc-272-cams.html


Also with the Kelford cams, you have to go to a Beehive spring set up, so add about $400

No there Crowers, 2 different companies. Had BC's, waste of money.

OP, with those mods, shouldn't you want to use one step colder plugs, the BPR8ES's?

Edit: Man, it's too early in the morning for me. 7's are one step colder!

Ya 6's are stock heat range, 7 and 8 are 1 and 2 steps colder.

 

[honda_burner]

Valve overlap?

 

[2g4me]

Valve overlap?

IF there is, I dont know why there would be any, timing is dead on, just bigger cams.

My untuned 97 had this problem when I installed DKS272s. Made driveability kind of a pain but it was because the lope on the cam. Once the car got higher RPM's it would scream and pull its face off.

It pulls good OCCASIONALLY, but 95% of the time it just doesnt wanna go, kinda like its its bogging down, its tryna make power and it does a lil. It goes into boost, starts to move and then something holds it back, it wants to go you can hear it, but it doesnt. It doesnt cut out or lose power, its just not making any.

 

[boost97gst]

OP: It sounds tune related cause you say its not a 100% of the time failure. If it was mechanical valve timing it would never go away.
I have Crower 272s, not BC's. I literally found out theyre 2 different companies a few weeks ago. I know, stupid. Now i havent pushed mine hard yet but it definitely has more topend than stock. And quite a bit of lope at idle. They are zeroed still too. Atleast thats what i told the machinist to do and i believe him. I cant really say too much about them as im running WG pressure on my PTE until i get another 500 miles on the engine. Then ill know how they perform past 6k. From 3 to 6k is good at 12psi though, pulls really hard.


Edit: Might check your exhaust too. Make sure nothing is restrictive. I know, long shot. But its something to look at

 

[honda_burner]

I was reading in one of those links that you should retard the exhaust 5° out and/or the intake 5° as well with aftermarket cams or you may get over lap which would act like a boost leak I would believe. All pressure the turbo built would be pushed out the exhaust valve. Someone correct me if im wrong here please. Im just speculating.

 

[2g4me]

I was reading in one of those links that you should retard the exhaust 5° out and/or the intake 5° as well with aftermarket cams or you may get over lap which would act like a boost leak I would believe. All pressure the turbo built would be pushed out the exhaust valve. Someone correct me if im wrong here please. Im just speculating.

I dont have adjustable cam gears tho so i guess my only option at this point (assuming thats the problem) is to put the stock ones back in. I also wanna say its not tho because if that was the case then it would never run right, rather than just bad most the time and good sometimes....I dont know, but its really irritating me.

OP: It sounds tune related cause you say its not a 100% of the time failure. If it was mechanical valve timing it would never go away.
I have Crower 272s, not BC's. I literally found out theyre 2 different companies a few weeks ago. I know, stupid. Now i havent pushed mine hard yet but it definitely has more topend than stock. And quite a bit of lope at idle. They are zeroed still too. Atleast thats what i told the machinist to do and i believe him. I cant really say too much about them as im running WG pressure on my PTE until i get another 500 miles on the engine. Then ill know how they perform past 6k. From 3 to 6k is good at 12psi though, pulls really hard.


Edit: Might check your exhaust too. Make sure nothing is restrictive. I know, long shot. But its something to look at

The exhaust is all good, its hard to say its even the tune, i wouldnt think a tune would let it pull like crap most the time and really good part of the time. Like i mentioned before, i dont have adjustable gears so stock ones apparently have to go back in for now...###!.....THEN hopefully even then it goes back to how it was before, running good, if not then i got a problem somewhere.

 

[boost97gst]

Still, i gotta say, it doesnt sound like the cams are the problem. Ive had weird electrical problems and all the sudden 1 injector will stop firing. Restart and clear the code and it wont happen again for awhile. Im just saying, its not 100% of the time so technically its intermittent. That would have me looking at electrical or air/fuel or something along those lines. You dont have link so id say check a log. Link is actually helpful in troubleshooting.

As far as degreeing the cams, i dont think thats necessary at all. It can be beneficial in making more hp up top or down low but with them at stock position you should have a balance of top and low end. Blow by is inherent in longer duration cams. Thats why they have that "lope" to them and dont do well in lower rpms. Try a set of 280's, you would probably shit if you saw how bad they are in the lower range.

 

[2g4me]

Still, i gotta say, it doesnt sound like the cams are the problem. Ive had weird electrical problems and all the sudden 1 injector will stop firing. Restart and clear the code and it wont happen again for awhile. Im just saying, its not 100% of the time so technically its intermittent. That would have me looking at electrical or air/fuel or something along those lines. You dont have link so id say check a log. Link is actually helpful in troubleshooting.

As far as degreeing the cams, i dont think thats necessary at all. It can be beneficial in making more hp up top or down low but with them at stock position you should have a balance of top and low end. Blow by is inherent in longer duration cams. Thats why they have that "lope" to them and dont do well in lower rpms. Try a set of 280's, you would probably shit if you saw how bad they are in the lower range.

Its hard to say either are the problem but something aint right. But as with any issue, gotta find out what the problem is to fix it. Its just weird, dont know what the problem is and i dont know exactly where to start to figure it out/fix it.

 

[honda_burner]

It may be running right part of the time because the computer is able to advance timing correctly under certain conditions.... assuming ny theory is right.

 

[DSMnoobsause]

My 2 cents. Ditch the safc and get link. Then log how much knock you have. Or a quick test to see if you have knock issues. Run 110 race gas and see if things Change for the better. The reason I say this is you may be seeing knock or at lest your ecu thinks its seeing knock.

 

[2g4me]

When you install the cam did you degree them front the factory cam card? Or you set them at cero and play with the timing on the computer. Another one when you running high cam you loose compression that is another one. I Running 288/280 Kelford .

WTFIf you could type legibly i could give you a good answer!!

My 2 cents. Ditch the safc and get link. Then log how much knock you have. Or a quick test to see if you have knock issues. Run 110 race gas and see if things Change for the better. The reason I say this is you may be seeing knock or at lest your ecu thinks its seeing knock.

Unfortunately i cant afford link right now nor do i know anything about it.

It may be running right part of the time because the computer is able to advance timing correctly under certain conditions.... assuming ny theory is right.

Could possibly be but no way to tell since i have no way to log anything.