2G Cranked while priming, only click when trying to start

[Fayt]

So my motor has been down for a while, got the timing, headgasket, misc. maintenance done and wanted to start it tonight. I pulled the engine 20A fuse to prime the motor, cranked it a few times in short spurts to move the oil. Put the engine fuse back in and now it only clicks, no cranks at all. Is my engine fuse blown then? I'm going to check it closer after this. My CEL light posts in the ON position and disappears after a few seconds. Starter and wiring is obviously fine, I can crank it with the engine fuse pulled.

EDIT:
Nevermind, maybe I just was impatient. After letting it sit for another minute it cranked fine. No start though with 7 cranks, but the battery died Gonna let it charge overnight and re-prime and try tomorrow! With a motor that has sat for over 3 months, any precautions I should take starting it or tips for a smooth engagement?

 

[Fayt]

Hello everybody, my car has recently come back from the dead After doing the timing belt and headgasket job about 4 months ago I was able to finally get it cranked today. I did not delete my balance shafts, as the goal was just to get this car on the road again, but I did replace the BS belt with the timing belt. All new tensioner, pulleys, and gaskets.


After working with the fuel system for a bit, it roared to life finally!

The motor will turn over in a couple cranks, but I am leaking oil from the camshaft seal I believe and the oil pan, even though it was RTV'd pretty thoroughly and allowed several days to dry. Can I check if the camshaft seal is seated properly without removing my timing belt? I also used Mobil 1 full synth 10w-30, is this too thin of oil and leaking because of the high pressure? I'm also not sure if my oil leak is ONLY because of the high oil pressure or not, would like to solve that issue first. Would porting the OFH be recommended even though my BS are still there?

Oh, I should add it was idling at 1k by itself for a while, then it started to climb; slow at first then gradually faster surges between 1k and 2k before I noticed the oil dripping down and I turned it off.

It feels surreal that after all this time sitting I could get it to start so easily... just a few little issues and its back on the road!

 

[BogusSVO]

First, Forced Performace has info on why NOT to use Mobile 1 syn. oil, they have shown the wear on a new journal bearing turbo.

Something is odd having high oil pressure with out a BSE.

Are you running the factory gauge? or an aftermarket?
What readings are you seeing?

 

[Fayt]

I was going to drain the oil anyway to have at the camshaft seal and I guess redo the oil pan gasket. I don't think the seal seated properly, after taking my valve cover off I can move the top half of the seal slightly left to right. I can also see oil only on the inside of my exhaust cam gear and below it all over the water pump. Bleeeeh, didn't want to take the timing belt off again. What oil would you suggest for a break in on a new motor? It has sat for so long I consider it new to me!

I can just loosen the belt tensioner pulley to slip the belt off and get to the seal right? I don't need to completely remove the whole belt?

Just the factory gauge, and its about 80% of max, about 1/2" from the 2nd high mark at a cold start. Even when revving to 3k it didn't move much.

 

[miguelmcv]

The stock gauge is not accurate, you need a real gauge, My stock gauge read 3/4 when cold and a little over 1/2 when it warm, when rev it goes all the way 3/4, on my other dsm reads a little over 1/2 when cold, 1/4 when is warm and goes 3/4 when rev.

Change the oil grade and install a real gauge if you want to see real numbers.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Doesnt setting the balance shaft out of sync cause higher pressures and a bit more vibrations

 

[BogusSVO]

yes if the BS was out of sync, you would get more vibrations, but it would not effect oil pressure.

 

[1Gina2G]

I'm still a newb here but I just got done dealing with this major issue myself. I kept getting oil leaks right below the timing cover. Sounds like your problem is something head related, such as the metioned cam seals, or even a valve cover leak. For me it was deffinatley the front case, specifically the rubber oil seals behind the crankshaft and oil pump sprockets.

I can just loosen the belt tensioner pulley to slip the belt off and get to the seal right? I don't need to completely remove the whole belt?

I hate to say it, but I'm almost %100 certain you're going to have to follow the timing belt procedures (for preparing to remove, then install) untill your leak is fixed. Then tensioner pulley & tensioner body are the main things that keep the belt the way it's supposed to be, so there's no shortcuts with the timing, so if the timing is in the way, you have to line up all the marks to keep your valves shut and safe (specifically the cam marks) and re-tension the pulley for the correct distance on the tensioner body's push rod.

Were you the one who installed / assembled your engine head? What about the front case (oil pump) & oil filter housing?

How many miles on the engine? Is it factory? complete rebuild? I've always read that you should use really cheap conventional oil (walmart brand) for breaking in the engine for the first 1000-1500 miles. From then on it's probably best to use conventional oil. 5W30 /10W30 are regular oils for these cars but as bogusSVO was suggesting, its probably a good idea to stay away from the mobil 1 synthetic, especially if the engine's just breaking in....If you're broken in and its just been a while pick up some shell rotella t6 for turbo diesels, nice oil with zinc (rust preventer) made for turbo engines

 

[Fayt]

Yes, I was the one who did the install and used all new gaskets for the whole front case. I had taken the whole motor out and did the job on an engine stand. The head was checked and cleaned, valve stem seals replaced, and only about .01 taken off. Did not do a whole rebuild, motor has about 40k on it.

I am excited that it started so easily, had my doubts as to the timing being set correctly and everything. I gotta study tonight, but tomorrow I'll put it at TDC and just recheck everything, going to replace both camshaft seals since I'm not sure if I seated them properly or not, and get an oil pan gasket because I've had no luck using RTV to seal my oil pan.

 

[DSM1G90]

He only did a top end - left the bottom alone.

Thus, can't see why the need of using synth oils for this reinstall. Now, if he did a complete overhaul, then I agree: Cheap WallyWorld dino oil for break-in periods then the gradual swing to Synths.

I've done cam seals: yank off the front sprocket, remove the front cam cap and do your seal

On a sub topic here: Few years ago, the rave about Mobil1 was the bomb - how good the stuff is and nothing was better.

Now, comments are made that how BAD Mobil1 is due to excessive wear on important parts and such.

What happened to cause this sudden flip with Mobil1, outside of NOT using synths on break-ins (dang, if you do-thing will never get broken in) ?

-DSM

 

[1Gina2G]

and get an oil pan gasket because I've had no luck using RTV to seal my oil pan.

Really? Which color RTV are you using? I've had a %100 success rate with RTV om the oil pan, not the first drip. It makes it a little harder to pull the pan off the block but I wouldn't ever use a gasket on these oil pans, just or the fact that they come from the factory RTVd as well as alot of other things..I personally feel that bolting just about anything from the center out usually makes the flatest surface for the best seal.


Not sure if you know about the UV engine dye but that can really help with a leak if your looking at night with the light. Let us know what you find after some close examination of the timing. I'm almost certain its your cam seals since you mentioned oil on the water pump, but who's to say that you don't have oil shooting out the top of your front case? The belt could also sling oil everywhere. Which REMINDS me that I should have mentioned earlier that you're going to atleast want to take off the main timing belt just to get it cleaned up. You don't want any oil at all on your main belt, it can make it really easy for any of the sprockets to jump time, destroy most of the teeth in the belt as well as bent valves in the engine head.

line up the timing marks and use whatever you use to hold the cams in place, tension the rod with the special tool or take if off later and compress it. loosen the tensioner pulley to relive belt tension, take off the belt and wipe it down really good, and wipe all the pulleys & sprockets down. Nice and clean and dry. Not sure how much you know about the timing but the tensioner body itself does not tension the belt, YOU tension the belt and the tensioner itself just holds it in place. Took me a while to realize that.

All in all it took me 3 trys, with taking the entire timing off, and the oil pan, to get to the front case. The drip was SO low I really couldnt tell even though I watched it the entire time, so thats why I took everything off, first time was just the oil pan only off though.

I ended up using brand new gaskets for the front case & oil pump, both with just the slightest bit of black RTV on both sides of the gasket, on just the very edges of the gaskets, noting that the RTV will smear once bolted down, staying clear of the oil passages. Bolted the front case down center out with ALL the bolts DOUSED in medium strength threadlocker and grey RTV on the 2 rubber oil seals before installation of the front case. JB weld was used durring the balance shaft delete plugs. High strength threadlocker on the oil pump sprocket since it likes to come off.
Did the 30 minute engine break in and not a single drip

 

[pauleyman]

had my doubts as to the timing being set correctly

You should never have these doubts. There are lots of ways to get the belt on but only one way to check if it's right. The marks have to be dead on after six rotations and the tensioner protrusion has to be in spec. I've done hundreds of belts. I'm not nervous at all because it's easy to verify.

 

[Fayt]

I used permatex black gasket maker last time on my oil pan and I can see it dripping out from around 2 bolts near the OFH. I was going to do DSM1g90 said and just slip my cam gear off to replace the one, but since the belt got oil on it and I don't know if its the only leak I'll be taking the timing casing off today. I want to SAY its the only leak because I see the majority pooling on the inside half of the exhaust cam gear and the water pump, and I saw little drops get flung up from the exhaust cam spinning around. I guess it really isn't that hard to do and I have all day, just a bi*** with the motor in the car, no room to get in there.

I read through about 8 or 10 oil pan leaking threads and found there to be 3 things that worked for people to stop leaks. 1)RTV Grey, guess this came from the factory 2)Permatex the Right Stuff thick gasket maker, its used on new Mercedes, Fords, GMs, etc to resist oil, atf, coolant etc and 3)Felpro oil pan gasket with a small amount of RTV Red on it. I honestly cannot remember a time I HAVEN'T had a small oil pan leak, and I've used RTV Grey and Permatex black mostly. Figure I'll give the actual gasket a shot, its only $10 :\ If the gasket and rtv red does not work then I'll give rtv grey another shot, or have my oil pan checked for dents/divots on the edges.

I was nervous, because this was my first timing job. I know a lot about vehicles, just didn't want the ultimate repercussions and the motor getting eff'd. Since I did this timing though (sat for a few months while I got other parts of the car ready), I have done 4 other vehicles timing and all of them turned out fantastic and healthy, so my doubts have been alleviated. It really is simple, just line up cam marks and oil pump marks, make sure they stay in place when the belt goes on, fit snug with the pulley tensioner then pull the auto tensioner.

I'll keep you guys posted... going to my midterm soon then its tear down time round 2! Should I get new oil since I'm technically not breaking it in, its just sat forever? I drained the Mobil out and don't have an issue getting that shell rotella t6, anything to make this run smoother and easier. I'm curious also, when did Mobil get such hate? When I registered in 2005, it was considered one of the top oils to use in our vehicles, now we shouldn't touch it at all??

 

[pauleyman]

Just to clarify, pulling the pins isn't enough. You must rotate the motor, get the marks lined up again so you can verify the marks and MEASURE the protrusion. Visual inspection of the Tensioner is not adequate.

 

[1Gina2G]

honestly not sure.at all about the mobil 1 deal.

I wouldn't use the red RTV , it's actually the only rtv I've had bad luck with,. never used it on te oil pan but other things. It's like it doesn't really dry out, like it has to get.hot to seal since it's heat related rtv.

you honestly can't go wrong with the grey.rtv, it's factory equivalent.
Just make sure what ever sealant you use, has a nice.clean surface.
ALL the old RTV from the pan and the block has to get scraped off, or else it wont adhere correctly resulting in a bad seal..regardless if your using a gasket, RTV or both.

 

[Fayt]

Well, worked on it a bit and took it apart again to recheck everything... what I found could explain my problems.

First off, I'm pretty sure the camshaft seal was in backwards replaced it with a new one in proper orientation.

With the timing belt cover off, it looked like most of the oil came from there, only the top half had wet oil, most of the lower components were barely wet, just minor spots.

Second, I was missing a bolt in my OFH... The one up and to the right behind the timing cover bolt. Yea, could see part of the oil filter gasket in there too... found the right length and thread and heard it squish together, probably where my "oil pan" leak was coming from, as it was nearly 1" away from the source.

Just gotta finish putting the valve cover on, fill it with oil and start 'er up to see if I'm leaking still!

ADDED:
I'd love to tell you everything's working well and leak-free, but I can't get it to start! Just cranks over and over, doesn't sound like the motor is catching at all. Pulled the spark plugs and had spark on all 4, nice bright white spark and they were coated in fuel, you can smell it from above the motor. Checked my fuses, they all look OK. Also went and rechecked the timing and it is still fine, TDC on the cams lines up on the oil pump.

Any ideas? It literally started yesterday and I changed nothing but the timing belt, guess I'll check it again. I had a CEL from yesterday, rented an autozone scanner and it was two EGR/Check valve related codes, cleared them and it still wouldn't start.

I should throw in there that my boost gauge doesn't 0 out in the ON position and my tach doesn't move when cranked, don't know if that is a sign of a bad MPI relay or ECU.

 

[miguelmcv]

Check nothing got loose, Check your Maf connector but more important check you Coolant temperature sensor, if it is bad or disconnected your car will never start and only will throw up to much fuel making the car to not start, check your cas as well and see if it is making a good connection.

Can you post a pic of the timing marks to see how they are?.

Some times they looks good even missing a tooth.

 

[1Gina2G]

I was also going to mention the coolant sensor, it's what happend to me last time. You wouldn't think a water sensor would actually do that but it deffinatley will.

Not sure how to test that specific sensor, but it should have some ohms value on the meter, I could check mine later if really needed, I just had to replace a broken plug in my case.

With the meter, check the coolant sensor in ohms, switch to voltage and check the battery to see how close it is to 12V, plus or minus some is perfectly fine. Make sure you DON'T OHM OUT THE BATTERY! you'll destroy your meter and probably damage the battery one way or the other..you said you tested the plugs, what about the plug wires? If not, pull em all out and OHM out with the meter, should beep for continuity, always test the meter before each real test by simply putting the 2 wire probes together. Did you forget to plug in the alternator? Make sure all electrical connections are tight as possible, and if you have ternminals or wire ends that look old & dirty, buy some electrical contact cleaner, good stuff.

Not sure how to test the coil pack, Im sure there's ohms and voltage, will have to check into that.

 

[Fayt]

Didn't have much time this weekend to work on the car, but I replaced the coolant temp sensor and got a new battery (the old one was wrong size, bad cranking amps). It still just cranks and cranks though I can smell burned material and when pulling the oil cap there is faint smoke that comes out (doesn't really smell like oil or coolant, just burned gas). While its cranking I can hear it 'pop' like a misfire and slightly grumble out the back but still does not start. After work I'll pull the timing cover again and 100% make sure its timed and throw some pictures up.

Firing order is 4123, which is what it was the other day when it started. I know its a 6 bolt so I should swap 1&4 w/2&3 so it would be 2341, but when I crank with that firing order it does not crank more than 4 times before stopping the crank momentarily, weird starter noise like its backing out and starting over, CEL comes on, and cranks again 4 more times, etc. Just doesn't sound as healthy and consistent.

 

[DSM1G90]

Firing order is, 1-3-4-2 ... on all 4cylinder motors.

Chek your coil pak with this link :http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33471&d=1088544507

 

[Fayt]

I'll be picking up a multimeter today to measure my coil pack(s). I rechecked the timing on Monday before Sandy knocked out all my power and was off a few teeth on the crank gear. It's timed absolutely perfectly now, but having no power meant I couldn't open the garage to vent it the past few days!

The car starts up in a couple cranks and doesn't leak oil anymore. There is a delay in revving that has shown up since the first start... when revving it takes about 1-2 seconds from pedal being pressed for the engine to rev and tach to move. I hear a slight misfire pop out the exhaust randomly, and will idle fine at 1000 sometimes by itself, but then misfire slightly and die. I have 2 extra sets of coil packs to test so hopefully one of mine is fine.

Of course, brand new NGK wires only plugged in ONCE, 0 miles on them, and the crimp connector for wire 1 comes off in the coil as I was swapping the firing order! I got the crimp out and reattached it tightly to both contacts in the wire end, but I'm not sure if that could be causing my spark issues.

Also I was thinking I had old gas in the tank still; I just added Techron fuel cleaner and 7 gallons of 93 octane, don't know if I would have clogged the crap out of my fuel filter from the old junk in there. I'll add what I find from my coil packs shortly.

ADDED:
Coil on car tested to 1.0 ohms on primary coil and 12.55k ohms on secondary coil. My other two packs tested to 1.0/12.37k and 1.0/12.65k ohms. The meter I bought can do 0.# on the lowest setting (200), when putting the leads together it measured 0.3. So, after taking that from the primary test, wouldn't all my coils be close to spec around 0.7? Means my coils aren't the issue... going to test the CAS and the transistor pack...

 

[arsalan500]

make sure you have good oil in there,

whenever I pick up a car that has been sitting, I make sure to seafoam it, to try to clean out the fuel system as much as I can.


someone correct me if im wrong, but you could disconnect the injectors and remove the plug for the coil pack, and then turn it over, which would make sure you got oil everywhere before you started

 

[spyderdrifter]

You could also have a 17mm socket welded to a piece of metal for a drill adapter to prime the engine with a drill. But this only works if the timing belt is still off, as yours isn't. This is how I do mine. Primed before engine goes in.