Could it be my timing?

[badboyr6]

Hey guys I'm having a problem, I took the head off because my valve seals were bad, I had the head machines. I installed the head with a new hg and torqued it down to specs. I put my new timing belt on, lined all the marks up just like the book says, installed new water pump and all the belts. So I go to start it and she starts but the engine makes a noise like its a diesel. Could it be the timing? Please help

 

[1992awdlaser]

Could be the lifters. They probably drained out while you had the head off and now they are ticking because they are empty. If that is what it is the noise will go away. How long did you leave it running after putting it back together?

 

[badboyr6]

1week. I put some oil into the valve cover and it doesn't seem to help. But the noise is sooo loud. Could it be my cam timing? If it was my timing would the car run at all?

 

[thom2white]

Well it never hurts to recheck what you've done, but we have deffinatly had some motors chatter once the lifters drain. The trick is, next time you take them out, just soak them in a bowl full of oil prior to reinstalling them, works like a charm for us. Good Luck.

 

[badboyr6]

I just went out and turned on my car but thenoise was still there and about a minute into it and it died and wouldn't start again. And ideas?

 

[1992awdlaser]

Timing could be off enough for valves to hit pistons. And now it won't start due to low compression from the valves hitting the pistons.

 

[thom2white]

/\/\ agreed, usally on the 4g63 motor 1 tooth out of time is a valve chattering due to contact with the pistons, two teeth and well you'll be getting some more practice on those lifters. Check if the crank and cams are in time at TDC, if you feel good about the time run a compression and leak down if you have the tools to determine if you have internal damage.

 

[badboyr6]

So do you guys think I damaged my motor?

 

[thom2white]

Well it's hard to tell with out testing it. In your first post about setting up the timing marks and all, did you by any chance compress the timing belt tensioner (usally in a vice) before putting in all back together? We have before seen a senario where we put a motor all back together and put it in time, with out compressing the tensioner After one spin of the motor the cams were slightly out of adjustment because the tensioner was fully extended. Just food for thought.

 

[1992awdlaser]

We would have to be in front of the car to tell you for sure. Re-check the timing first. If you think it is close do a compression test.

Lifters ticking or valves hitting the pistons are the only things I can think of that would make the car sound like that though. The lifters wouldn't keep it from starting though. So, I would have to say valve/piston contact.

 

[badboyr6]

ok I just looked at my cams and the intake is off by 1 tooth what do u guys think?

 

[1992awdlaser]

ok I just looked at my cams and the intake is off by 3 teeth. ### do u guys think?

I think the intake valves probably hit the pistons and caused the noise. And now it won't start due to either bent valves or holes in pistons.

 

[Twistaye]

I think you might want to start pulling your engine apart and seeing what kind of damage has been done, sorry to hear it man !

 

[badboyr6]

I did compress the tensioner

 

[thom2white]

Yeah it's not sounding good, you just have to make the call. You could tear the timing cover back down and try and put it back in time, and try to start it agian, hoping that it was just making more noise that damage but it is a toss up. It just depends on if you would rather invest a little time in the timing belt and maybe having it running, or cut your losses and start tearing the head back off, knowing you will get it fixed. By the way man, do not feel bad about it. I'm sure 80% of the people on this site have had the same kind of problem at some point or another, and if not, they probably don't work on many of them. Stick with it and you'll get it right!

 

[thom2white]

Hell yeah, glad to hear it about the tensioner. Man it sounds like you did it up right, if the belt is tight (ie: didn't jump time), and you think maybe you just set if one tooth off in the begining, I would probably try and put the motor back in time and see what you got. It's a heck of lot quicker than pulling the head.

 

[badboyr6]

I'm in the process of redoing the timing. I honestly dont want to take the head off again. When I took the cover of the tb the cams were off 3 teeth buy after I turned the motor they were off by one tooth so I really dont one what it could be. Do I have to install all the belts in or to start the car once I do timing?

 

[boosted86]

you will not hit valves, if your timing is off by one tooth. usually it takes like 4 or 5

 

[JusMX141]

Sorry, but I beg to differ. I'm currently rebuilding the head on a customer's car because the timing tensioner failed and the intake cam skipped by 1 TOOTH. It bent (4) intake valves.

I lined up all the marks, checked and double-checked the marks, and that's the only thing that was out of whack.

I think the exhaust cam is a little more forgiving, but for some reason the intake must be dead-nuts or you're bending precious metal.

 

[numlock666]

It really depends on wich way it skipped and which cam. If skipped timing twice, once one the intake cam by 4 teeth and it was 4 teeth retarded and it bent 2 intake vavles. Another time it it jumped from the BS belt snapping and it didn't damage anthing. Kinda like Russian Roulette

 

[badboyr6]

well i set the timing again and finally i got it dead on...but for some reason the oil sprocket is off by a little bit. i decided to start the car with all the belts off and it sounded normal, apparently i got it going ok, but i still have to install all the belts and stuff before i can say its A ok...so i guess i had everything half ass backwards... thats a lot guys, i really appreciate you guys helping me out.. i mean if it wasnt for your encouragement i woundnt have gotten this thing together.

 

[boosted86]

Sorry, but I beg to differ. I'm currently rebuilding the head on a customer's car because the timing tensioner failed and the intake cam skipped by 1 TOOTH. It bent (4) intake valves.

I lined up all the marks, checked and double-checked the marks, and that's the only thing that was out of whack.

I think the exhaust cam is a little more forgiving, but for some reason the intake must be dead-nuts or you're bending precious metal.

no your wrong, being off by one tooth WILL NOT BEND VALVES. usually when timming skips, it will jump at the crank sprocket, not the cams. your "custmers" valves probally got bent because of his cranksprocket skipping teeth. a friend of mine ran his car for 6months)off ny 2 teeth) it ran like shi* and was pulling 13lbs at vaccum. we redid his timing, and did a compression check...170 across the board, and pulled 20lbs of vaccum at idle.

 

[BootlegGreg]

Stay on topic! Compression ratio has a lot to do with it. 1g's have less CR and therefore are more forgiving. He has a 2g so it might not be so good. Can you take off the valve cover and verify all the rockers are still in place. If you did any damage to valves it will pop the rockers off and they will be laying at the bottom of the head.

 

[dsm-onster]

Be nice. This IS the subject. Besides, have you seen the dish depth difference between 1g and 2g pistons? 1 tooth more than allowable and the valves hit both. The CR is only .7 different. Not very much for 499.25cc per cylinder.

I havn't bent valves running 1 tooth retarded on my stock exhaust cam either. It used to be a common dsm mod. In fact, when I bought my car the intake cam was advanced 1 tooth and the exhaust was retarded 1 tooth. Sounded like a v8, but she didn't bend a valve for the 250 mile trip home. Add to that, the water pump pulley was installed backwards, and you have a local redneck special (no offense, Johnny Cash is my personal hero).

The op originally posted his timing was off 3 teeth. Look at Post #11 and #12. So which was it?

Just do a simple compression test? No sense in asking for a diagnosis without this. If you can't do one, we're all helping you speculate . I and many others can help you rebuild the head yourself, provided you didn't break any valve guides. But, we all should be asking for your compression numbers.

 

[BootlegGreg]

I was referring to the bickering back and forth. I also agree that a couple of teeth off is ok. I have done a few belts before and have never seen someone hit valves with the belt a couple off.