1G COP or Cheap CDI options

[alexbuck205]

So i've been having some spark blowout issues at high boost 25psi+ and would like to know what other people have done to get rid of this, From what i understand a COP set up isn't going to help with blowout is that correct? I have my plugs gapped to .020 which i thought was pretty tight already but i might tighten them up to .018 or so to see if that helps any.. Whats the cheapest option for a CDI set-up? i'd like to run 30psi without any issues.

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

What kind of plugs are you running? Hopefully NGK BPR7ES or their equivalent.

 

[brads]

To clarify, you aren't experiencing spark blowout. Your spark is not getting blown out. The issue is that it isn't starting. Which is very different from blowing out. Not starting is usually related to inadequate spark voltage. Blowing out is something altogether different, where the spark voltage is strong enough to start the spark, but something in the combustion chamber is blowing it out after it is started. But everyone calls what you are seeing blowout because they don't know better.

Clean fresh plugs will help, as will making sure you have a good connection at all the plugs. A little smaller spark gap will help. And if you have your timing too retarded, advance it. Make sure your battery/alternator is putting out good voltage, and look at the wiring to see if you have much voltage drop at the coil. All of these will help you get a little more performance out of your stock system before you have to upgrade.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the spark issue might be related to a boost spike. If your boost control has a big spike in it, trimming that down can help too.

As for what CDI, the ARC-2 is pretty simple to install and will include everything you need. I'm biased about it though.

 

[alexbuck205]

What kind of plugs are you running? Hopefully NGK BPR7ES or their equivalent.

yeah i'm running brand new BPR7ES

To clarify, you aren't experiencing spark blowout. Your spark is not getting blown out. The issue is that it isn't starting. Which is very different from blowing out. Not starting is usually related to inadequate spark voltage. Blowing out is something altogether different, where the spark voltage is strong enough to start the spark, but something in the combustion chamber is blowing it out after it is started. But everyone calls what you are seeing blowout because they don't know better.

Clean fresh plugs will help, as will making sure you have a good connection at all the plugs. A little smaller spark gap will help. And if you have your timing too retarded, advance it. Make sure your battery/alternator is putting out good voltage, and look at the wiring to see if you have much voltage drop at the coil. All of these will help you get a little more performance out of your stock system before you have to upgrade.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the spark issue might be related to a boost spike. If your boost control has a big spike in it, trimming that down can help too.

As for what CDI, the ARC-2 is pretty simple to install and will include everything you need. I'm biased about it though.

I've checked over everything that I can, New plugs gapped to .020, all the connections are good, new 8mm NGK wires, Voltage is good, no boost spike boost is controlled by ecmlink with solenoid, car was tuned on Saturday morning on a very low timing curve so i dont believe timing is an issue.

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Did you start at .028 on the plugs and then work your way down, or did you go straight to .020 on the gap?

 

[alexbuck205]

Did you start at .028 on the plugs and then work your way down, or did you go straight to .020 on the gap?

straight to .020, when i was a b16g a couple months ago i had them gapped to .025 and when we tuned on 20lbs it was doing the same thing, lowered them down to .020 and it helped.

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

I would have started at .028... Probably just needed new plugs. I run 28psi on my BPR7ES plugs gapped at .028

If it starts to stumble or misfire I put in new plugs gapped to .028 and continue on. I am on the stock ignition system to BTW.

 

[alexbuck205]

I would have started at .028... Probably just needed new plugs. I run 28psi on my BPR7ES plugs gapped at .028

If it starts to stumble or misfire I put in new plugs gapped to .028 and continue on. I am on the stock ignition system to BTW.

the plugs were brand new saturday morning, tuned right after and then hit the track had to back the boost down to 25 to avoid breaking up. i'm going to check voltage tonight at the coil and see where its at.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

I'm 23 PSI at .028 and no problems here after new plugs

 

[brads]

yeah i'm running brand new BPR7ES



I've checked over everything that I can, New plugs gapped to .020, all the connections are good, new 8mm NGK wires, Voltage is good, no boost spike boost is controlled by ecmlink with solenoid, car was tuned on Saturday morning on a very low timing curve so i dont believe timing is an issue.

A low timing curve can cause the problem. Think about the pressure in the cylinder as the piston gets closer to tdc. The less timing advance you have, the higher the pressure in the cylinder when you are trying to ignite it. Which behaves like higher boost. If your timing is to conservative, try giving it a little more advance. And go to a smaller gap.

 

[alexbuck205]

is this the correct wiring set up for a 90 COP? I got a kit but needs rewired for a 90.

 

[bastarddsm]

Switch to non projected plugs, drop the gap down to about .018", run a heavy ground wire from the head to the coil pack, if it not mounted on the intake anymore.

New NGK wires, or some better wires like the big taylors.

The factory battery and coil is a pretty stout ignition, it will generate as much voltage as it takes to jump the gap, and if the wires leak first, that's where it will go.

CDI is not reccomended for blown applications because if the spark is blown out it will not reinitiate, unlike an inductive ignition.

Also keep in mine that non projected plugs efectivly retard the timing a bit, same thing goes for super small plug gaps.

 

[bastarddsm]

I'd also try an kenne-bell boost-a-spark.

 

[alexbuck205]

Switch to non projected plugs, drop the gap down to about .018", run a heavy ground wire from the head to the coil pack, if it not mounted on the intake anymore.

New NGK wires, or some better wires like the big taylors.

The factory battery and coil is a pretty stout ignition, it will generate as much voltage as it takes to jump the gap, and if the wires leak first, that's where it will go.

CDI is not reccomended for blown applications because if the spark is blown out it will not reinitiate, unlike an inductive ignition.

Also keep in mine that non projected plugs efectivly retard the timing a bit, same thing goes for super small plug gaps.

might be a noob question but what plugs are non projected? I've been told by everyone in the DSM community that BPR7ES is the only plug to run in your DSM, Also i have brand new 8mm NGK wires, the coil is still mounted to the intake mani but i could run another ground just to be safe. The only thing i can think could be the issue is that i did relocate the battery to the trunk so maybe thats causing low voltage to the coil?

 

[alexbuck205]

and btw like i stated i picked up a COP Set up thats wired for a 91+ can anyone confirm that the photo i uploaded is the correct way to rewire the COP set up for a 90 plug? Thanks

 

[brads]

Switch to non projected plugs, drop the gap down to about .018", run a heavy ground wire from the head to the coil pack, if it not mounted on the intake anymore.

How much spark current flow would flow down that wire, with stock dual output coils? Look at the spark current path on the coil secondary.

CDI is not reccomended for blown applications because if the spark is blown out it will not reinitiate, unlike an inductive ignition.

In most cases, DSMers calling it spark blowout aren't experiencing spark blowout, as I said before. They are experiencing the spark not starting in the cylinder. It could be because it completes the circuit/shorts elsewhere, or it could be just not enough voltage.

While I agree that a CDI isn't always needed, your reasoning is all wrong. The inductive ignitions have a nice long spark. The CDI is short, but many will actually fire multiple times. The real issue is whether or not a good combustion can start from those 2 different spark profiles .

 

[brads]

the coil is still mounted to the intake mani but i could run another ground just to be safe. The only thing i can think could be the issue is that i did relocate the battery to the trunk so maybe thats causing low voltage to the coil?

The ground wire from head to coils shouldn't matter much if you are keeping the stock coils. If you swap to a COP system, a ground wire like that may help.

Your battery relocation absolutely could be causing issues with low voltage to the coil.

 

[jakelandry]

You'll want BR7ES, not BpR7ES. Also something is wrong with your setup. I, along with several others, have run significantly higher boost levels on a stock ignition system, less wires. Personally I've run my car up to 40 psi on a 100% factory ignition setup with only ngk wires. Clearly you have a problem somewhere in the line and It wouldn't be the best idea to go cdi.

 

[bastarddsm]

How much spark current flow would flow down that wire, with stock dual output coils? Look at the spark current path on the coil secondary.

I had the same reaction when someone told me to do it. I did it, and it made a big difference. It takes 2 seconds to do, what could it hurt?

In most cases, DSMers calling it spark blowout aren't experiencing spark blowout, as I said before. They are experiencing the spark not starting in the cylinder. It could be because it completes the circuit/shorts elsewhere, or it could be just not enough voltage.

An inductive ignition will always make enough voltage on the secondary to dump the energy. It will either jump the plug, or jump another point. While yes, the spark probably isn't being blown out because it never starts it's a fitting term. In the end the arc can start and not ignite the fuel, be extinguished, reignite, and then ignite the fuel. That's technically a "blow out" but we don't really know if it happens in our dsm's.

While I agree that a CDI isn't always needed, your reasoning is all wrong. The inductive ignitions have a nice long spark. The CDI is short, but many will actually fire multiple times. The real issue is whether or not a good combustion can start from those 2 different spark profiles .

You know that most cdi's only have restrike up to a certain rpm (usually about 3000RPM), right? There's gotta be a reason that blown alcohol uses magneto's and not a MSD10....

 

[brads]

I had the same reaction when someone told me to do it. I did it, and it made a big difference. It takes 2 seconds to do, what could it hurt?

Was it with the stock coils though? On a COP or something with a single output, the spark current does have to flow in a larger loop through the charging system. So a ground strap can help there. Not so with a dual output coil. My suspicion would be that something else was going on that was the culprit there.

An inductive ignition will always make enough voltage on the secondary to dump the energy. It will either jump the plug, or jump another point.

Incorrect. If you don't have enough voltage to jump the gap, AND the system is working correctly(no places for it to short), it can pretty much just go away after the magnetic field collapses. Inductive won't just keep building voltage on the secondary until it jumps a gap. The inductive spike is proportional to the energy stored in the primary.

And it may have other limitations as well. The transistors may have a breakdown voltage of generally 300-450V, which will also limit your output voltage.

A CDI will generally produce a much higher voltage than inductive, making it much easier to bridge the gap. That is why it generally solves most problems with guys drag racing(to a point). The CDI also discharges its energy MUCH faster than inductive. More current etc.

While yes, the spark probably isn't being blown out because it never starts it's a fitting term. In the end the arc can start and not ignite the fuel, be extinguished, reignite, and then ignite the fuel. That's technically a "blow out" but we don't really know if it happens in our dsm's.

In most cases it isn't what is happening. Increase the firing voltage a little, or decrease the voltage requirements, and the mysterious "blowout" suddenly solves itself.

You know that most cdi's only have restrike up to a certain rpm (usually about 3000RPM), right? There's gotta be a reason that blown alcohol uses magneto's and not a MSD10....

An inductive ignition will only restart the spark IF it still has the energy to do so. As it fires, the energy in the coil is discharged. IF the spark is interrupted halfway, it will have a much smaller, weaker second voltage spike that may not be enough to bridge the gap. So it can be blown out and not restart.

The ARC-2 is closer to 3600. Other ones are designed to restrike to a higher RPM by using dual capacitors. Only some stop at 3000 RPM.

I guess it depends on what class of blown alcohol you are describing. I know some blown alcohol cars putting down 3K+ HP with CDI ignitions. Other classes may avoid using MSD because they want a reliable firing event. I know the Harley guys for example were paranoid about running an electronic ignition because a missed spark could result in the cylinder head being launched up at their chest. Even some of those guy run CDI ignitions now

 

[alexbuck205]

i'm going to add another ground from block to chassis tonight just because, i'm also going to removed alternator and have it tested, been throwing the idea around of a saturn alt swap and i already have the j's relocation kit so maybe i'll upgrade and see if that'll help my problem.

Y'all are awesome thanks for the help!

 

[brads]

With that battery relocation, you really should try to measure the voltage drop as a result of it. IF you are having issues with low voltage, it can affect a bunch of other systems. And any other system you put on (CDI, COP, boost a spark) would all be affected by that low voltage as well.

 

[alexbuck205]

okay so i found my issue and it was with my wastegate opening irregularly due to a very small crack in the vacuum line running to it.. Fixed that and my boost hits hard and constant so i'm happy.. Now on to the COP thing, Ive purchased a COP set up that was on a 92 DSM, I have a 90 so i need the correct wiring diagram to wire this bish up, anyone have the correct diagram? I've looked around online but it seems that there are multiple different diagrams so I'd like to get one from someone who knows its correct..
Thanks again everyone!

 

[alexbuck205]

Nevermind wasn't searching hard enough!

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/cop-wiring-for-a-90-cop-came-from-a-91.469891/

 

[brads]

okay so i found my issue and it was with my wastegate opening irregularly due to a very small crack in the vacuum line running to it.. Fixed that and my boost hits hard and constant so i'm happy..

Glad to hear it is resolved. Boost control problems definitely will cause spark issues when you are running near the limits of the stock system. Do you log boost with dsmlink? Could you see if it was spiking right around where the problem was?

JNZ Tuning, Extreme PSI, and STM all sell the connector you need to change that harness to the 4 pin 1990 style COP