Contructive Info On Aluminum Rods?

[BoredDSM]

Actually he broke one and shot it threw the block

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/299957-jake-montgomery-mir.html

It also wasn't a groden

 

[Slippi84]

It also wasn't a groden

It was just as good quality as the groden though. I highly doubt that Jake who spent a small fortune on that car and din't cut any corners would run some knock off aluminum rods in his motor

Aluminum Connecting Rods

 

[twicks69]

For everyone on here looking at running a butchered crank -- I have ran one for the last 3 years along with Eagle rods and Ross pistons on clevite bearings. The crank did great for 35psi and LESS -- once I started running much more boost (45-50psi) along with high revs; even on my 2.3L, the crank had a tendency to jump-rope, causing the inner main bearings to get chewed up fairly quickly.

I would reccomend using a stock crank or an Eagle crank for street/race applications that are looking for high HP numbers. If you are looking to keep it realistic; or want to regularly replace your bearings (Once a year to be safe), then go for it. If you are looking to flog the crap out of it, then I would suggest a crank with a little more meat left on it.

Please understand, I absolutely loved the crank for its insane free-revving nature as it was more than 7 pounds lighter than my stock 7-bolt 2.4L crank, but it came at the cost of chewing up main bearings more regularly due to crank flex. And yes, the crank was cryoed. The crank was around $1200-1300 from Darren at FFWD in 2005. It DOES rev like a crotch rocket!

I plan on using a stock 7-bolt 2.4L crank with Groden rods and Ross custom pistons for my new setup.

My old race engine will be refreshed with new bearings and rings again and will be kept as a backup motor.

 

[Slippi84]

For everyone on here looking at running a butchered crank -- I have ran one for the last 3 years along with Eagle rods and Ross pistons on clevite bearings. The crank did great for 35psi and LESS -- once I started running much more boost (45-50psi) along with high revs; even on my 2.3L, the crank had a tendency to jump-rope, causing the inner main bearings to get chewed up fairly quickly.

I would reccomend using a stock crank or an Eagle crank for street/race applications that are looking for high HP numbers. If you are looking to keep it realistic; or want to regularly replace your bearings (Once a year to be safe), then go for it. If you are looking to flog the crap out of it, then I would suggest a crank with a little more meat left on it.

Please understand, I absolutely loved the crank for its insane free-revving nature as it was more than 7 pounds lighter than my stock 7-bolt 2.4L crank, but it came at the cost of chewing up main bearings more regularly due to crank flex. And yes, the crank was cryoed. The crank was around $1200-1300 from Darren at FFWD in 2005. It DOES rev like a crotch rocket!

I plan on using a stock 7-bolt 2.4L crank with Groden rods and Ross custom pistons for my new setup.

My old race engine will be refreshed with new bearings and rings again and will be kept as a backup motor.

Good info as always twick. I had originally planned on making a track only all out car but spending that much money on a car you can't drive on the street just seemed like a waste so I will sacrafice a little more weight and make the car a little more streetable and durable. I don't plan on making a DD or a eve a car that will see the street all the time but more like a street bike(seasonal and nice weather days). So even though people say aluminum rods are better now with street driving than in the past I am going with a more durable manley/Mapperformance I beam rod 2.2 setup. Another big factor with the aluminum rods is install. You have to notch the block for clearance because the rods are so gurthy on the big end which will cost a lot more for machine work than a regular install.

 

[gixrman]

Groden site says that they are having a "sale" on now but no price listing. We should get a group buy going.

 

[joe sobo]

i also had a crank lightened and knife-edged at a cost of about 1,100 in n.j when i lived there from a very reputable place. while it was out, it looked awesome, but after about 200 miles and one boost spike it broke in between # 4 clyinder and the rear of the motor. i at first didnt know what was wrong, ithought my clutch was going and just rattling when id let off the gas. if i floored it , i wounldnt hear or feel anything. only when i let off the throttle. took the tranny out figuring i had to replace clutch. once i go to take off the 6 crank bolts, i could feel all the moving on the crank...... of course from continuing to drive the car home, i destroyed the engine also.

unless its a all out race engine, i do not reccomend having the crank lightened or knife-edged,,,,,,loss of reliability

 

[jshuman]

Thanks for all the helpful info guys. It's nice too hear from people who have been down this road. I would like to think that I need a setup that will tolerate tons of street abuse but in all reality, this car only saw 2k street miles this year. So I am still looking for something to push me one way or the other.

 

[BoredDSM]

Good info as always twick. I had originally planned on making a track only all out car but spending that much money on a car you can't drive on the street just seemed like a waste so I will sacrafice a little more weight and make the car a little more streetable and durable. I don't plan on making a DD or a eve a car that will see the street all the time but more like a street bike(seasonal and nice weather days). So even though people say aluminum rods are better now with street driving than in the past I am going with a more durable manley/Mapperformance I beam rod 2.2 setup. Another big factor with the aluminum rods is install. You have to notch the block for clearance because the rods are so gurthy on the big end which will cost a lot more for machine work than a regular install.

The only thing you have to notch in a 2.0 with aluminum rods are the main caps. It is only when strokers use aluminum rods do you have to notch the bottom of the cylinder.

 

[Slippi84]

The only thing you have to notch in a 2.0 with aluminum rods are the main caps. It is only when strokers use aluminum rods do you have to notch the bottom of the cylinder.

I know i'm trying to build a 2.2 motor

 

[v8s_are_slow]

This is a good thread. I plan on going with a Butcher crank and aluminum rods in my next build (been wanting it for a long long time but been going the cheap route with a Scat/Wiseco combo). Still deciding on pistons. Anyway, so talk of rod bolts were discussed at the beginning of the thread. Are the rod bolts still needing to be checked about every oil change? That's a lot of work for an awd car. I really want aluminum rods just pondering cause of where I live and the ability to just tear the oil pan off and inspect isn't all that easy (apartment complex). Please keep the topic going.

Another thing I'm wondering is the torque and how it effects launching when ya have to let off the clutch or on decels (keeping the motor from stalling). I want as light of a setup as I can but wanna be able to run it on the street when I want with occasional track although it's not gonna be a DD.

 

[BoredDSM]

This is a good thread. I plan on going with a Butcher crank and aluminum rods in my next build (been wanting it for a long long time but been going the cheap route with a Scat/Wiseco combo). Still deciding on pistons. Anyway, so talk of rod bolts were discussed at the beginning of the thread. Are the rod bolts still needing to be checked about every oil change? That's a lot of work for an awd car. I really want aluminum rods just pondering cause of where I live and the ability to just tear the oil pan off and inspect isn't all that easy (apartment complex). Please keep the topic going.

Another thing I'm wondering is the torque and how it effects launching when ya have to let off the clutch or on decels (keeping the motor from stalling). I want as light of a setup as I can but wanna be able to run it on the street when I want with occasional track although it's not gonna be a DD.

No, generally people who have used it say you do not need to check the stretch as long as you torqued it properly in the assembly process. The people who do check it very often don't really see any stretch. A lot of people who use it go thousands of miles without tearing down and check them. There has been no complaints of the streetability of the rods but like twicks stated he has a very jumpy rpm.

 

[MidShipCivic]

Quick question how are they checking stretch?

 

[1992awdlaser]

This is a good thread. I plan on going with a Butcher crank and aluminum rods in my next build (been wanting it for a long long time but been going the cheap route with a Scat/Wiseco combo). Still deciding on pistons. Anyway, so talk of rod bolts were discussed at the beginning of the thread. Are the rod bolts still needing to be checked about every oil change? That's a lot of work for an awd car. I really want aluminum rods just pondering cause of where I live and the ability to just tear the oil pan off and inspect isn't all that easy (apartment complex). Please keep the topic going.

Another thing I'm wondering is the torque and how it effects launching when ya have to let off the clutch or on decels (keeping the motor from stalling). I want as light of a setup as I can but wanna be able to run it on the street when I want with occasional track although it's not gonna be a DD.

I would check for stretch at least every other oil change.

I'm sure that will be a slight problem, nothing big though. Most of us are used to it already from the isc not working properly anyway.

 

[Slippi84]

I would check for stretch at least every other oil change.

I'm sure that will be a slight problem, nothing big though. Most of us are used to it already from the isc not working properly anyway.

ISC(Idle speed control) ? How does that not working make you get used to checking for rod bolt stretching

 

[1992awdlaser]

ISC(Idle speed control) ? How does that not working make you get used to checking for rod bolt stretching

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

The isc comment was in regards to the question about stalling on decel.

 

[Slippi84]

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

The isc comment was in regards to the question about stalling on decel.

It's cool I just thought isc might stand for something else and I was just making a joke but that makes sense to.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

So how many of you guys are actually "running" these? Not just have them waiting to go in an engine. Just wondering.

As for the Butcher crank messing up bearings, I wonder if a stronger main cap would help prevent that.

 

[twicks69]

So how many of you guys are actually "running" these? Not just have them waiting to go in an engine. Just wondering.

As for the Butcher crank messing up bearings, I wonder if a stronger main cap would help prevent that.

The stronger main cap may be a bandage solution, as it is the crank physically bending under the high boost and rpms. I just measured my crank, and it is .013" out of straightness due to the 3 years of jump roping. It is salvagable, but I will now be running an uncut 7-bolt 2.4L crank instead, with my Groden's and a set of custom Ross pistons.

Maybe the crank would last longer without jump-roping had I run the aluminum rods from the start...but not likely as I was only using a 550g. steel Eagle rod in the first place.

Jake Hanhardt ran custom billet main caps on his 2.3L 6-bolt (butcher/Groden/Ross combo), but never put down enough miles on the engine to show if it was necessary to run them. The billet mains are expensive, but the amount of machinework and clearancing time needed to run will make it cost alot more if someone is doing it for you.


Back to the crank...yes, it is awesome for the quick revs that the butcher crank can do for you by removing 7 pounds of rotating assembly mass. Unfortunately, the revs come at the cost of producing a weaker crank from the machining process, and it just cannot handle the extreme boost pressures and high revs for a long time. Just words of advice if you are going to run any type of heavily cut crank.

 

[MidShipCivic]

Back to the crank...yes, it is awesome for the quick revs that the butcher crank can do for you by removing 7 pounds of rotating assembly mass. Unfortunately, the revs come at the cost of producing a weaker crank from the machining process, and it just cannot handle the extreme boost pressures and high revs for a long time. Just words of advice if you are going to run any type of heavily cut crank.

Quick question you've had your crankshaft lightened by who? Did you send your entire rotating assembly along with it?

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Well, my plan is to build a 2.0 motor (without the more extreme rod angles of a stroker), with a Groden and probably Mahle piston setup as well. Looking to get a Butchered crank also and run a Buschur 20g. Figure this would be a great fast revving motor with a good spooling turbo that has some good pulling power on it and great for the street. I don't plan to rev the crap out of it and boost on the turbo wouldn't be sky high either. But I do wanna beat the 20g record.

The thought about running aluminum rods saving the mains did cross my mind cause of the lower weight and all. You're running a stroker also though aren't you? If so, I'm wondering if you'd have those same issues on a 2.0 motor. As for the main caps, I'd think it'd help keep it straight. I mean that's what having stronger caps and ARP's would be there for. Yeah, might be bandaid, but if it helps keep the bearings from being destroyed and keep everything straight, who cares.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Also, has anyone heard anything about MGP rods? They're a lot cheaper so dunno if it'd be half-assing on the parts or just saving money. Wondering how they'd compare to Groden or GRP's.

Slowboy Racing :: Engine :: DSM Engine :: Connecting Rods :: MGP Aluminum :: MGP Aluminum Connecting Rods

 

[MidShipCivic]

Also, has anyone heard anything about MGP rods? They're a lot cheaper so dunno if it'd be half-assing on the parts or just saving money. Wondering how they'd compare to Groden or GRP's.

Slowboy Racing :: Engine :: DSM Engine :: Connecting Rods :: MGP Aluminum :: MGP Aluminum Connecting Rods

I'd look more into what their fastening hardware is then check out the manufacturer website.

 

[twicks69]

Quick question you've had your crankshaft lightened by who? Did you send your entire rotating assembly along with it?

It is a "butchered" crank -- this is the specific name for Darren's product from his company -- FFWD Connection. It was lightened and edged (or butchered) by him back in June of 2005. There is around 35,000-40,000 street miles on it, and of course all the dyno and track time the car has seen.

Really, there is not a need for aftermarket main caps; it is the crank itself that was bending. The stock main caps can handle quite a bit of power before they become an issue. As well, my engine is a 99 7-bolt, and it has an integrated girdle for the main cap design. The main cap/girdle definitely wasn't flexing, causing the crank to bend -- it was the crank due to being cut down. Like I said before, this crank is great for realistic applications =-= personally, I would go with a different crank though, for boost levels higher than 35psi continuously and high rpms.

It would be killer in a low boost, high revver motor, low rod angle motor.

 

[MidShipCivic]

It is a "butchered" crank -- this is the specific name for Darren's product from his company -- FFWD Connection. It was lightened and edged (or butchered) by him back in June of 2005. There is around 35,000-40,000 street miles on it, and of course all the dyno and track time the car has seen.

Really, there is not a need for aftermarket main caps; it is the crank itself that was bending. The stock main caps can handle quite a bit of power before they become an issue. As well, my engine is a 99 7-bolt, and it has an integrated girdle for the main cap design. The main cap/girdle definitely wasn't flexing, causing the crank to bend -- it was the crank due to being cut down. Like I said before, this crank is great for realistic applications =-= personally, I would go with a different crank though, for boost levels higher than 35psi continuously and high rpms.

It would be killer in a low boost, high revver motor, low rod angle motor.

Twick, did he not require your rotating assembly in his lightening process?

 

[twicks69]

Twick, did he not require your rotating assembly in his lightening process?

No; I only purchased my crank and pistons (Ross cryoed S.O.B.'s), and then I had my machine shop balance the rotating assembly once everything was received.