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2G Ceramic Wheel Bearing Interest Thread

Posted by jakelandry, Jan 11, 2020

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  1. jakelandry

    jakelandry Proven Member

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    Minden, Louisiana
    Hey everyone, I am making this post solely to see if there would be any interest in a group buy for ceramic wheel bearings for FRONT 2G hubs only (with the possibility of rears following shortly after). I am not a supporting vendor on the site yet so we cant discuss pricing or details unfortunately, but if enough interest is generated, I will pursue becoming a supporting vendor and sharing all details. Thank you.
     

    4K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    11.410 @ 125.490 · 2G DSM
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  2. Canadian_CD9A

    Canadian_CD9A Proven Member

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    Joined Feb 10, 2012
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Curt Brown already does a set for the DSM, but extremely costly. Would you be able to come in cheaper than his cost?
     
  3. jakelandry

    jakelandry Proven Member

    896
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    Joined Oct 13, 2009
    Minden, Louisiana
    I am not allowed to discuss pricing but yes I would, potentially by a lot, and I would also offer some additional benefits. If the mods allow my post to stay I would be more than happy to answer any questions.
     

    4K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    11.410 @ 125.490 · 2G DSM
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  4. GSXbooster

    GSXbooster Supporting Member

    143
    78
    Joined Jun 3, 2003
    Centennial, Colorado
    I'm intrigued and would be interested. This is something I was planning on doing at some point anyway.
     

    Road Race Build 2K  8

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  5. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    You changing the grade of the balls? Or keeping to the standard grade.
     

    Road Race Build 10K  10  57

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    175 whp · 180.1 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  6. mountain_man

    mountain_man Supporting Member

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    Joined Apr 18, 2007
    Merritt Island, Florida
    Interested in both a front and rear set, as well as learning more about some of the "features" you're thinking about, if that's appropriate. To @ec17pse question above, are you thinking about improving the ball bearing design itself or maybe just the housing? Would these be more serviceable / easily replaceable?
     

    Road Race Build 2K  11

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  7. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    When i looked into the design it was tricky to do much to it. Not impossible but its not cheap to do either
     

    Road Race Build 10K  10  57

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    175 whp · 180.1 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  8. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    wampum, Pennsylvania
    Maybe somehow make it grease-able externally is what he is thinking?
     

    Drag Race Build 4K  24

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM
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  9. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    No need to, grease does not remove itself as its sealed
     

    Road Race Build 10K  10  57

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    175 whp · 180.1 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  10. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    wampum, Pennsylvania
    Sort of, it does go away though, I have replaced many a burnt up bearing for lack of lubrication in alot of different brands of cars during my time as a tech, sadly even in the year 2020 there is no perfect seal still.
     

    Drag Race Build 4K  24

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM
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  11. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    Grease has a life span anyway so if its ran out the bearing needs to be changed. When i regreased mine (was only 3000 miles old) i nearly added a zerk or how ever you spell it fitting for greasing but decided against it
     

    Road Race Build 10K  10  57

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    175 whp · 180.1 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  12. jakelandry

    jakelandry Proven Member

    896
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    Joined Oct 13, 2009
    Minden, Louisiana
    I guess rather than discussing this as a group buy, I can discuss what I will be doing to MY bearings and would be willing to extend to others since I have the equipment and resources to do the work.

    For the design, we are kind of at the mercy of the existing hub which will require us to make “hybrid” bearings with 52100 races and ceramic rolling elements. The bearing outer race, which will have to be reused, is machined into the flange so we don’t have much freedom in modifications. I am avoiding any form of machining because it immediately drives the price up. The only benefit I can see to doing machining to begin with would be if we were to heat treat the races which would require machining afterward for dimensional integrity. I am still considering taking a set and heat treating them without final machining after to test on my own car but as of now do not intend to extend this to the public.

    As far as features and benefits, these would be made using grade 5 silicon nitride balls from a reputable North American vendor and either oem bearing races or an aftermarket of adequate quality. The steel races would be cryo treated which helps prevent sub-surface material inconsistencies from incomplete grain formation which is significantly more common that it sounds. I will also offer an option to press in customer supplied arp wheel studs at a very reasonable rate since I would already have the bearings town down completely and I could build a jig to do them quickly.

    The good news about ceramic bearing lubrication is they do not need anywhere near the grease volume that steel bearings require. They are significantly less prone to spalling, clearance fluctuations from temperature, and friction which are all combatted with lubrication in steel bearings. You can, in theory, run them dry in a completely clean environment as the ceramic balls keep the races polished rather than abrading them with friction like steel balls do.
     

    4K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    11.410 @ 125.490 · 2G DSM
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  13. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    The oem housings are already hardened as you cannot use ball bearings on anything un hardened so all bearings will have a hardened surface.

    I looked into making a housing for taper bearings (i did a small write up on it here some where) the problem is cost of the housing and custom bearings would be a good $600 ish if i remember correctly.

    You could get the races micro polished which would be a nice finish but not sure how to suggest that or who to see about doing it! Lol
     

    Road Race Build 10K  10  57

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    175 whp · 180.1 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  14. B00stAddictedGsx

    B00stAddictedGsx Proven Member

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    Joined Oct 10, 2016
    bethlehem, Pennsylvania
    Would WPC Treatment be an option that could provide value in any capacity?
    just my .00000000002 cents
     

    2K  5

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  15. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    Its a way forward yes, another cost effective option is to buy top quality steel balls that are micro polished. I think surface trestment are a cost effective way and should hold up well but not sure on time or their load rating for it, maybe email them and ask and see what they say
     

    Road Race Build 10K  10  57

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    175 whp · 180.1 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  16. T2Small

    T2Small Proven Member

    142
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    Joined Dec 22, 2003
    Victoria,
    Definitely interested!
     

    Autocross Build 1K  0

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi
    433 whp · 352 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  17. RWD4G63

    RWD4G63 Proven Member

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    Joined Dec 7, 2011
    Paw Paw, Michigan
    This sounds like a good plan, and for everyone talking about grease issues, just use a high quality synthetic like Redline. It'll probably outlast the car haha. Cryo treatment ftw.

    Tapered bearings are an inferior bearing for this application.

    WPC would definitely help with bearing longevity as it improves lubrication and surface hardness (slightly). As far as value per dollar goes, it is a little more expensive.
     

    Road Race Build 313  3

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  18. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    Tapers are only inferior as they dont roll as good as ball bearings but they are alot stronger in axial forces, compare these to angular contact bearings or normal degree they will still out perform balls,
     

    Road Race Build 10K  10  57

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    175 whp · 180.1 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  19. RWD4G63

    RWD4G63 Proven Member

    412
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    Joined Dec 7, 2011
    Paw Paw, Michigan
    The problem is that they don't handle multi-angle thrust forces well. A wheel bearing is loaded in basically every direction, especially in a front driven wheel. You would need two tapered bearings back-to-back, which is big, bulky, and would have a lot of drag. A good ball bearing setup with quality grease is the best bearing for hubs.
     

    Road Race Build 313  3

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  20. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    I know they need 2. All wheel bearings use 2 to work, i already designed a setup with tapers but struggled to find a good cost effective way to make the housing.

    You can get deeper angled units to work better in higer axial loads but then you sacrifice other strengths.

    I myself would opt for strengh over rotation as its not that bad since they used them and still do in some racing applications todate with good success
     

    Road Race Build 10K  10  57

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    175 whp · 180.1 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  21. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

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    Fountain, Colorado
    What's the benefit of ceramic in the wheel bearings?
     

    1K  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    2K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    2K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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