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2G Car Smoking After Engine Built

Posted by polverari, Oct 10, 2019

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  1. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America
    Hello!
    I will try to be brief in describing my problem as I imagine you see several such reports here. I used the search and read several topics with similar issues, but would like to ask an opinion for my particular one.

    > New Engine have only 7 miles running.

    I rebuild my Eclipse GST 95 engine by myself at home. After the first start, the car began to smoke. I will now quote in topic all the details so you can know.

    1 - The cylinders were honed. (Sorry, I don't know the expression.. But is the process that leave some angled scratchs on the cylinder wall.. When... I think you all know what im talking about.

    2 - I'm using Wiseco Pistons 9.5:1 (Stroker). I bought new rings. I had never mounted an engine by myself, but I remember taking great care with the correct position of the rings. I remember so far reading the manual, following exactly the position and correct orientation.

    3 - Car is smoking at idle (a little), and you can see much smoke when acelerating. (Specially reving at idle or climbing a road.) I will post many pics and videos here.

    4 - I used Assembly Lube and WD-40 (Great amounts) in the engine assembly.

    5 - I was sad and worried when i saw the car smoking and I decided to remove the exhaust manifold to see what was going on. I noticed that the four holes (the eight small outlets, one for each valve) were very... had spots of some kind of black oil. (You can see on the pics)

    6 - Im using E80 (80% Ethanol). This fuel mixture has been in the tank for 4 months. (Fuels in Brazil have VERY BAD quality, btw...)

    7 - The turbine has no oil or slack. I didn't find oil inside the exhaust manifold. I also found no oil in the TBI or the pressurization pipes.

    8 - The head spent a few months in a workshop. The valves have been changed, the valve guides have been changed, the seals have been changed, the springs have been changed. Preparation work was done on the ducts ... Technically, it is 100%. Also, from the pictures I took, I think the valves are dry (on the stem part)

    9 - I'm using a Oil Catch Can. PCV + Side out of the Valve Cover going on the Cam.

    10 - The oil level is correct. Top mark in the dipstick. Im Using MOTUL 8100 5W40

    11 - In the first start of the engine, I used another Synthetic 5w40 and i changed the oil after 15 minutes of engine working.

    12 - Car was running very rich (0.65 lambda) because i was without any tunning. Now its OK. But maybe.. spark plugs are black for this reason. I dont know...


    Well.. That's it..
    I will post PICS and VIDEOS down here.

    You can question me about anything and i will answer here.
    Sorry for my bad english =)
     

    Attached Files:

  2. jed344

    jed344 Proven Member

    563
    24
    Joined Jan 10, 2008
    Waterville, Iowa
    When assembled did you check piston to wall clearence? Aswell as check ring gap?
     

    844  26

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  3. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America


    Dont care about what i'm talking (Portuguese), its not relevant.
    Smoke at 1:00
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  4. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America
    Yes!
    Pistons to wall clearence = 0.0049 inches (0.125mm)

    Ring gap:

    Top = .0050”
    2nd = .0055”
     
  5. jed344

    jed344 Proven Member

    563
    24
    Joined Jan 10, 2008
    Waterville, Iowa
    Those seem strange to me for ring gaps. I run .022 and .024. If you are .005 that’s to tight, and if it was a type .050 is way to large.
     

    844  26

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
    Loading...
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  6. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America
    Sorry.. I answered wrong...

    Its:

    Top: 0.017''
    2nd: 0.0185"

    I answered the multiplier, sorry.
     
  7. jed344

    jed344 Proven Member

    563
    24
    Joined Jan 10, 2008
    Waterville, Iowa
    Hmm little tight but shouldn’t be causing smoking. How did you break it in? Did you cost the cylinder walls with anything and what oil was in it?
     

    844  26

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
    Loading...
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  8. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America
    Car still on break in. It has only 5 miles on the new engine. I was just walking around my neighbourhood with 1000-2000rpm max.
    I don't know what you mean with 'cost the cylinder walls' but.. In assembly, i used assembly lube on cylinder walls and WD-40 to not rust while i was assembly the rest of the car.
     
  9. jed344

    jed344 Proven Member

    563
    24
    Joined Jan 10, 2008
    Waterville, Iowa
    I always use ATF to clean cylinder walls. Also use non synthetic oil for break in. Reason being is you want the rings to wear against the walls right away and help to level off any imperfections. I always start it and run it around 3k rpm for 20 min. Then dump the oil check it, then take it for a drive and feed it boost and let the engine decel back down in gear. I would compression test and leak down test it. Will give you a idea if the rings are sealing or not.
     

    844  26

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  10. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America
    And what you recommend? I change my oil now to semi-synthetic?
    There any thing I can do? :-(
    Or just drive and pray?
     
  11. Dhan

    Dhan Supporting Member

    899
    131
    Joined Apr 29, 2010
    Denver, Colorado
    If it were me, the next step before driving anymore would be to do what jed recommended......leak down test and compression test.
    • Compression test sees exactly how much compression each cylinder is making. Involves removing a spark plug, screwing on the hose and gauge tester, turn the key to crank the motor, and see how high or low the gauge reads to see how much compression that cylinder is making. You test each cylinder, so you'll have four numbers. Unplug the coil pack or remove the fuse so the car doesn't actually start up. You just want to build compression in the cylinders for the test.
    • Leak down test basically fills the cylinders with compressed air and you see how much air escapes the engine and how quickly. There are write-ups on how to do the leak down test, but basically remove spark plug, turn motor until the cylinder you're testing is at top-dead-center, fill with air, read the gauge.
    Does it smoke constantly...only at idle, only at acceleration, only on start-up? What color is the smoke....blue, white, or gray?
    I'm rebuilding my first DSM engine right now, so I don't know a whole lot about them, but I've helped my dad with a dozen Chevy and Ford motor rebuilds. Some of the motors smoked for quite a while even on a fresh rebuild. It took quite some time and many miles for things to break-in and rings to seat. I think it is usually pooled oil and assembly lubricants burning off plus rings probably haven't quite sealed up on a brand new motor, as it eventually stops after some driving and breaking in.
    I would do those tests mentioned above though. If the motor is healthy and compression is in spec, it could be something like the valve seals or you just need to drive it more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019

    2K  4

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  12. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

    2,040
    739
    Joined Dec 9, 2010
    wampum, Pennsylvania
    Non synthetic only during break in.
     

    Drag Race Build 3K  24

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM
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  13. Anthony Boni

    Anthony Boni Proven Member

    183
    13
    Joined May 13, 2018
    Wrightstown, New Jersey
    Leakdown the motor. If it checks out, go out and give it some pulls on low boost. Keep idle time to a minimum, or you'll lose your window for a proper ring seal. You're on ethanol so you don't have to be awfully concerned with detonation. However, you don't want to run stupid rich. Washing cylinders on a brand new motor will definitely require a rebuild. Get her to operating temp, get CombinedFT as close to 0 as you can. Do a partial WOT pull at low boost and let it coast down in gear. The boost and high vacuum will seat your rings after repeating a few times.
     

    Street Build 183  6

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  14. 007jimmy

    007jimmy Proven Member

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    100
    Joined Feb 27, 2012
    Levittown, Pennsylvania
    Check #9

    You have both valve cover vents going to a can. Is the can vented or recirculating to the intake? If the can has no vent or recirculated hose you are building way too much crankcase pressure and oil is leaching through your seals causing the smoke. Do you still have the stock PCV valve?
     

    Street Build 965  25

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · automatic · 2G DSM
    Loading...
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  15. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America
    Thank you for the advices!

    1 - I will do a compression test right now, in this morning.

    2 - It smoke constantly. At idle, and tons when i have to accelerate. (Climb a road, mainly... or launch, even slowly)

    3 - For my newbie eyes, smoke is white, but i can smell oil, friends tell me its a little blue and after more 10 miles, 1/4 oil has been burned
     
  16. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America
    Before the oil catch can the car was smoking too, unfortunatly.

    By the way, the can have 2 entries and a exit on the top

    Yes! I have a stock PCV Valve. I bought a new one from extremepsi.com to this rebuild
     
  17. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

    4,756
    2,146
    Joined Nov 14, 2013
    Independence, Kansas
    Get the synthetic oil out and get some old fashion dinosaur oil in it and hope that the rings will seat after seeing the synthetic to start out with. I think the rings just haven't seated myself. My motor that I just installed after my own rebuild never smoked once, not even on 1st startup. I ALWAYS run regular oil and ZZDP additive to my car to break it in. A "dingle ball" hone on the cylinders and a thorough wipe down with ATF until a white paper towel or white rag comes out completely RED, no grey residue on them at all.
    This takes time but it keeps the honing grit from eating up the rings at first start up.
    @motomattx and @jed344 are describing the same thing I would have.
    Thank all of you for jumping in and trying to help our South American friend out!
    Hoping that this all works out for you!
    Marty
     

    Street Build 4K  28

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    683  14

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    511  18

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 716  7

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 5K  11  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  18. stillrunning

    stillrunning Proven Member

    102
    47
    Joined Oct 10, 2013
    brandon, Florida
    Do you have any pictures of the cross hatch pattern after you honed the cylinders?

    The cross hatch is what helps to control oil, too steep top to bottom and oil control is bad as well as too shallow/flat and oil control is bad

    You generally want around 45 degree cross hatch referenced from the top/deck of the block/cylinder bore

    I always wash the cylinder bores after honing with "hot" soapy water and rag to get rid of all the grit & oil/lube from the honing process

    I then finish coat the bore with a film of oil or even wd40 to keep it from rusting
     

    Street Build 451  3

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  19. jed344

    jed344 Proven Member

    563
    24
    Joined Jan 10, 2008
    Waterville, Iowa
    I have built a handful of 4g63. I haven’t had a single one smoke at all. And mine is built with similar PTW as you and even looser ring gap. From my tests on compression and leak down my rings appear to be fully seated within 100 miles, but these are also race motors. Mine was broken in on 25psi. Worst case rings won’t seat, then you should be able to pull apart re hone it with new rings and do a different break in and be ok.
     

    844  26

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
    Loading...
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  20. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America
    Unfortunately, I think by the exorbitant amount of smoke, just the oil change would not solve :-(

    In the end, I left the car in a garage (since my vacation is over) and there they will do the cylinder compression test and find out the problem.

    (I hope the problem is not some mistake of my assembly, but there is always a chance)
     
  21. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America
    I don't have...
    I remember this cross hatch when i got the engine block from the grinding, but i don't have any pics.

    In this wednesday i will get some news (thursday max) and i will update informations here!
     
  22. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America
    UPDATING:

    I remember one important thing.
    I bought a "universal wiseco rings" kit
    In this kit we have: first ring, second ring and the oil ring (that is made of 3 pieces)

    Stroker pistons have another ring.. named: "Oil Rail Support"

    I just bought the kit and installed the rings.. I built the engine without these "Oil Rail Support" rings...

    I'm still waiting for the answer, but I'm betting that this is the problem.

    P.S - I did a compression test. 195-200 PSI in all cylinders.
     
    BLACK'98DSM likes this.
  23. KYLE JORGENSEN

    KYLE JORGENSEN Proven Member

    40
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    Joined Sep 22, 2018
    SPOKANE VALLEY, Washington
    well I think you might have narrowed down your problem. you gotta always install every ring in the kit unless there is absolutely no room to fit it on the piston since you have a stroker piston kit they moved the piston pin up more and that is why the oil support ring is in there for more support and holds you can always take it a part and check the rings cause blue smoke in your video is almost always piston rings or valve seals, your getting oil to burn somewhere and if its not coming off the engine then its all internal

    seeing your video and you using your finger in the cylinder head you should not be having that much oil residue or carbon build up that bad you could possibly check valves if they are seated right

    your compression test is good that is awesome psi
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019

    Street Build 825  20

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM
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  24. polverari

    polverari Proven Member

    75
    10
    Joined Jan 29, 2018
    São Paulo, South America

    Thanks for the answer!
    I bought yesterday the 'wiseco oil rail support' on extremepsi.
    Im sad 'cause I really didn't know about these rings, no wiseco universal kit comes with just the normal rings.. But its ok, will be easy to fix
    I hope the other rings its 100%

    About your last comment, well.. The head is ok (thats whats the guy told me when dissasembling)...
    I hope the only problem is the absence of these rings

    I will post here some news when i finish this repair! Thank you!
     

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