Car not cranking after battery relocation

[NHerron]

If you want to know for sure how well you did, do this.

Figure a way to hook up a battery charger through the engine bay. Example, charger positive goes to starter positive stud and charger negative goes to a good solid ground, closest to negative cable. Now turn the charger on to 70A+. Read the output voltage at the charger cables. Now run to the trunk and read the voltage directly off the battery. This will tell you how much voltage you're loosing from the long distance cables.

BAM.

 

[95weclipse]

what he said ^^^^

 

[ishnish]

Well guys, after I read NHerron's suggestion about it still being my battery, I immediately got up, went outside, pulled out my battery, got in my dad's car and drove to Oreilly's to get a replacement battery under warranty. I was super excited cause maybe, just MAYBE it could have been my battery.

WRONG! I got back home and hooked it up, and cranked. It did not crank at all. I actually heard the starter click a few times this time around though. It didn't do that before. Before it was just one click. So I cranked again, and it clicked only once. Not a few times like the first attempt. So.... It's not the battery. This SUCKS!

 

[NHerron]

First, check to see if you have voltage at the starter, and the copper stud nuts are tight.

Then, try jumping the big copper lugs on back of starter, it bypasses the solenoid as being the problem. You might get a couple sparks, that's normal. If it spins, do it again only this time jump the little tab to the studs as well. This should try to crank the engine.

Do that with the key out though, so it doesn't start.

Picture (Google image) -jump the two copper studs together with a large cable or screwdriver. Don't touch these to ground though. Then once it spins, jump the little wire to the copper studs at the same time and it should crank the engine.

 

[ishnish]

I'm having a very hard time understanding man. I get that I have to get a screwdriver and basically touch the two copper parts with the one piece of metal being the screw driver, but what do you mean jump the little wire to the copper studs?

When I check the voltage at the starter, what should it read? do I just touch the tips of those copper stud nuts? Is it hard to reach this area? I have a hard time just seeing the starter itself. Would I do this from the driver side or passenger side? Looks like driver side.

Btw I'm uploading pics right now

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Here you can see where they come from and lead to the positive terminal wire of the battery

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These are the double 8 gauge wires I replaced from the fusebox with 4 gauge wires.

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This is all I have on my phone right now. If you guys need any more let me know.

UPDATE!!!

So guys, I decided to FINALLY check what I had been questioning for a while now. MY FUSES in the distribution box!! I checked and the 100 amp mini ANL fuse in-between the power wire coming from the starter and the 0 gauge wire coming from the batter was blown!! I then took a wrench and touched each metal end of the distribution block where the fuse connects and VIOLA!! The car cranked over and started. So I highly doubt my connections were bad or even the starter itself. I think I just need to step it up to a 150 amp fuse. What do you guys think though? This is just my though and idk much about electrical. Perhaps I am over simplifying the solution here but it really does make sense and seems to be the only problem apparent as of now.

 

[NHerron]

Don't do that, the fuse should stay 100A. Otherwise you might overheat wires, melt plastic, fires etc.
The fuse is designed to protect the wiring and is based off the size of the wires.

Also, there is no fuse for the starter. The fuse you blew sounds like the alternator fuse, blue one. When that one blows, one of the things it disables is the starting circuit. Most of the time it gets blown when people change out the alternator and arc a wrench from the alternator 'B' terminal to the turbos 02 housing.

 

[dsmcurse]

Dude, I told you days ago that 150amp is what it needs. I'm also gonna tell you that the starter wire that you homemade extended will be the next problem.

 

[ishnish]

Okay , I got two people telling me different things. NHerron tells me to keep it at 100 and dsmcurse tells me to step it up to 150. Idk what to do now .

NHerron, what do you mean no fuse to the starter? I guess I mean the starter "wire" The one that goes to the positive copper stud on the starter's bell housing. Did you see the pic I posted of my distribution box? That third fuse to the right is the one that blew (coming from the starter wire, not the fuse wire). All the other fuses are just fine my friend. So are you sure it's from the fuse? If so, I don't understand how it would blow a fuse not connected to it

dsmcurse, you're correct. Sorry, I did not recall the 150 amp part. I guess that, since it wasn't emphasized enough to where it sounded like the main problem (especially since no one else really mentioned it), it really didn't stay in my head. However, how could the "homemade" extension be the problem if it cranked over just fine when I made the metal to metal connection in the distribution block?

 

[NHerron]

3rd fuse to the right, as in the green one correct?

The starter motor itself has no fuse, the starter SOLENOID does, but it's bundled into other circuits which a single fuse protects. In other words, the solenoid does not have a dedicated fuse but it's protected along with several other circuits. You just don't upgrade fuses, there's no reason and it's not a good idea. They are a certain size fuse based on the wire size, and among other things.

 

[ishnish]

What I'm saying is that I don't think I blew a fuse from the alternator. Also, not to say you're incorrect, but why do so many others who have done battery relocations use 150 amp fuses instead of 100amp ones? Have you checked out the merged battery relocation thread? This is what gave me the idea to consider 150 amp fuses. And they seemed to have used it for the wire from the starter.

 

[NHerron]

I'll look into it, the 150amp fuse

But which fuse did you blow?

 

[ishnish]

the third one that you already stated is the one I blew. The one that has the black starter wire (4 gauge) going into the box. That's the 100 amp fuse that blew.

 

[ThunderChild]

have you done a starter draw test, now that you can at least get it to crank? your starter may be worn and drawing excessive current.

i dont see the need for a larger fuse as long as the proper gauge wire is used or you alter (increase) the amount of current flowing through that particular circuit...

 

[ishnish]

I have not. How do you do a starter draw test?

I'm pretty sure I used proper gauge wiring but idk. My pics show the wires I used.

 

[NHerron]

Crap I see now. I was thinking you were blowing one of the fuses in the factory fuse box. Now I see the picture you were talking about -third one to the right with the black cable. SO you have the starter fused now huh?

4gauge has a safe current limit of about 120-140 depending on temperature. The 'free running' spec of our starters is 90-100A. But remember that's free running which means no load on the starter. When mechanical resistance is put on the starter motor, amperage goes up. So you could very well be close to the limits of 4gauge wire. I personally might go the next size bigger with no fuse. Starters aren't fused because the initial current draw is very high since it's basically shorting the battery terminals together for a short amount of time until the starter gets moving. This short amount of time shouldn't heat up the fuse fast enough to blow but it's always possible, and that's why it's not fused.

If you have a certain question about the battery relocation thread, please link me to it. I don't have a ton of time to look around

 

[KYNDL7]

You might want to use a 300 amp fuse or a breaker or nothing at on that line because under load the starter pulls i believe over 200 amps!!!

 

[NHerron]

But then the fuse would be pointless because it would never blow before the wires melt themselves.

 

[KYNDL7]

yes thats true I suppose.

May I ask why You want to fuse the starter power wire in the first place, its not fused from the factory is it?

Just curious

 

[ishnish]

Hey guys, sorry for the late reply. NHerron, thanks for taking the time to do some research for me buddy. Well from the merged thread (of battery relocations), I saw a few people who had fused the wire from the starter (at least it sure looked like it from the diagrams) and that's why I fused mine. I just figured it was the correct thing to do. It's been a few days and my car has been starting up just fine actually . I might have to consider running a bigger wire but so far things have been going smooth and no hot wires or anything have been present. I have to use the fuse though because that's how my distribution box works (it's a fused one). Unless I buy a new one of course. But since things are going well, I guess I'm fine.

KYNDL7, I'm pretty sure it'd be safe to assume that 300 amps would melt my wires . That I can't risk. And the reason for the fuse is explained above

I haven't marked this thread resolved because I figured I'd give it a good amount of time just to FULLY make sure that my relocation was done smoothly and correctly.

 

[NHerron]

Does it seem to crank slowly at all? If you ever have a problem, you could test the voltage drop on the starter cables to see. Going a bigger size might yield a faster start up depending on the current voltage drop...

 

[ishnish]

Nope doesn't crank slowly at all. At first, it was a longer crank than usual but the next day after it was all just fine man. Now it cranks perfectly. Keeping my fingers crossed though . Actually, I just got back inside from starting her up again and it seemed like the first crank died so, by nature, I turned the key back to stop the crank. I then started it again and it started just fine. Hmm.. I checked all the wires after cranking just to make sure and everything was fine. It was still a scare for me though. I actually even started the car like 5 times after just to see if it'd do it again but nope. Maybe I should go with 2 gauge wire. Is it difficult to change that wire? I think I recall you saying that same wire leads to different solenoids? Idk though.

 

[NHerron]

How hard is it to change the starter cable? You never changed it before? Wait, is the one pictured the stock one? You should be safe if it's the stock one, I just never knew what the OE cable size was, I guess it would be about that size now that I think about it...

Here, this should help ya see what I mean about the cable being unfused from the factory.

 

[ishnish]

Stock one correct . I never knew what the OE size was either but my guess is 4 gauge.

I see what you mean about the cable being unfused from the factory but I figured that was because it was so close to the battery. When the battery gets relocated all the way to the back, I thought this is why people ended up fusing it. That thick cable from the back of the starter, does it connect to all those other circled wires? This is why I was so afraid to mess with it.

 

[NHerron]

Stock one correct . I never knew what the OE size was either but my guess is 4 gauge.

Yeah I would be fine with that stock cable for just that short distance then

I see what you mean about the cable being unfused from the factory but I figured that was because it was so close to the battery. When the battery gets relocated all the way to the back, I thought this is why people ended up fusing it.

I'm not 100%. I read a bit a couple separate nights and I just got from one member that they had it fused because the fusebox he bought was all ready for a fuse so he stuck one in there anyway. He basically didn't mean to have it fused, it just happened to work out that way. And by all the way back to the back do you mean it's more likely possible for the cable to be shorted to ground since it's been extended? Yeah it's possible and not a bad idea for the fuse but normally battery cable has veryyy thick insulation to prevent problems. Unless you're like my sisters idiot boyfriend and route the cable along the door pivot point, you shouldn't have any problems that I can forsee. That route I imagine you took (along the floorboard) is all powdercoated, no one puts pressure from their feet directly there and no moving parts nearby.

That thick cable from the back of the starter, does it connect to all those other circled wires? This is why I was so afraid to mess with it.

Picture attached. 1, 2, or 3 does not connect to eachother in any way other than being loomed together. 1a and 1b is the same wire and so on with 2a/b, 3a/b. All the wires are held together with electrical tape and a few pieces of 1" looming.

 

[foxracing4500]

First, check to see if you have voltage at the starter, and the copper stud nuts are tight.

Then, try jumping the big copper lugs on back of starter, it bypasses the solenoid as being the problem. You might get a couple sparks, that's normal. If it spins, do it again only this time jump the little tab to the studs as well. This should try to crank the engine.

Do that with the key out though, so it doesn't start.

Picture (Google image) -jump the two copper studs together with a large cable or screwdriver. Don't touch these to ground though. Then once it spins, jump the little wire to the copper studs at the same time and it should crank the engine.

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wait why is there 2 wires on the starter? I have a 99 auto gsx and only have 1 wire going to the starter. I do have cranking problems but with the starter being bolted down shouldn't it already be grounded?