Can't Align Hone 7 Bolt Block!!!???

[Harriz801]

For the past few weeks I have been trying to find a machine shop around Jackson Michigan that can Align Hone a 7 bolt. Due to the one piece main girldle no one has the machines to do it. Just wondering if anyone knows any shops that could perform this service?

I dont really want to pay to ship a 80lbs block out of state.

Thanks for the help!

 

[interex]

That's a new one to me. Our engines are NOT the only engines that use the solid main girdle.

It's really no different weather you have the girdle or individual caps, the hone goes in the hole just the same. Tell the machine shops you're calling they need to hire new workers.

 

[Harriz801]

Thats what I was thinking until he explained the process to me. He was telling me they take .010" off of the girdle bolting surface, bolt it back to the block, which gives you an out of round journal, then they run the hone through the mains to get a perfect factory measurement.

Does this sound like what everyone else does?

 

[twicks69]

Thats what I was thinking until he explained the process to me. He was telling me they take .010" off of the girdle bolting surface, bolt it back to the block, which gives you an out of round journal, then they run the hone through the mains to get a perfect factory measurement.

Does this sound like what everyone else does?

Wouldn't this process be an align BORE, and not an align HONE? A hone should be a simple process. An align bore would be the description you are giving.

 

[delta448]

Thats what I was thinking until he explained the process to me. He was telling me they take .010" off of the girdle bolting surface, bolt it back to the block, which gives you an out of round journal, then they run the hone through the mains to get a perfect factory measurement.

Does this sound like what everyone else does?

That's the standard procedure, and probably the safer/better route unless the strength of the girdle is in question with your power goals (extremely unlikely).

I'm thinking there is another possible way, but it'll probably cost you much more and you'd have to know for sure they wouldn't just charge you differently and still use the same standard method. Also of importance is a skilled, well experienced machinist with very good equipment.

My idea: If you don't mind using oversize (undercut crank) bearings (with custom locating pins/tabs?) I don't think the mating surfaces would necessarily have to be machined. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think you could ask them to measure the crankshaft main journals individually and increase each of the main's bore diameters individually for each journal of the crank to use the next bearing thickness level. As long as the bearing "crush" remains correct, I believe the bearing should conform to the mains without issue.

Doing this may require special equipment and likely cost MUCH more, but you could demand very precise bearing clearances and it wouldn't fudge the deck height by changing the crank centerline (or weaken the girdle as much as if the original centerline was indeed able to be retained by only cutting material off the girdle side).

We need an experienced machinist to join the discussion... Big Woo? 92awddsm? Defiant?

Wouldn't this process be an align BORE, and not an align HONE? A hone should be a simple process. An align bore would be the description you are giving.

It could be referred to as either. I believe it's popularly referred to as a hone because the bore isn't being enlarged as a primary objective. Rather, much more importantly it's being correctly centered and precisely sized. In general practice, boring usually involves cutting more material less accurately, honing usually just involves more precisely grinding a smaller amount. But if you say "align bore" any good machinist will still understand you perfectly.

 

[Harriz801]

Well thanks to the responses everyone. I went back down to the shop tonight to pick the block and crank back up. I talked to him for a few minutes tonight and he has contacted two other machine shops about this project and says that neither of them had the tools to be able to do this. So now I'm stuck with no ideas.

I bought this car with intentions of just to have another nice 2g. I will eventually bolt on other things: like turbo's, intercoolers etc. but for now I'm not shooting for any HP gains.

I would just like to have a factory motor with strong parts and good machining.

The only reason why I'm having the align hone done is because I put a set of ARP Main Studs in the block.

I will also be using all factory parts and ACL race bearings.

 

[treebonker]

There is another way, but it will probably cost you much more and you'd have to know for sure they wouldn't just charge you differently and still use the same standard method. Also of importance is a skilled, well experienced machinist with very good equipment.

If you don't mind using oversize (undercut crank) bearings (with custom locating pins/tabs?) I don't think the mating surfaces would necessarily have to be machined. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think you could ask them to measure the crankshaft main journals individually and increase each of the main's bore diameters individually for each journal of the crank to use the next bearing thickness level. As long as the bearing "crush" remains correct, I believe the bearing should conform to the mains without issue.

Doing this may require special equipment and likely cost MUCH more, but you could demand very precise bearing clearances and it wouldn't fudge the deck height by changing the crank centerline (or weaken the girdle as much as if the original centerline was indeed able to be retained by only cutting material off the girdle side).

If you bore the mains larger side-to-side then the block is junk. Oversized bearing on top of that then you're left with no crush and no oil clearance.

The only reason why I'm having the align hone done is because I put a set of ARP Main Studs in the block.

If the mains are in spec then you don't "need" to align hone the mains to use ARP studs. Did the machine shop find the bores too out of round with the ARP's installed?

 

[spooled_u_1st]

If your using arp main studs then you need to have the journals checked. This is because the arp mains put more force possibly causing out of round journals.

With your hp. goals OEM studs would be just fine.

 

[Harriz801]

Well alright, I never had the machine shop measure the journals, he just thought intiailly that he couldn't do it so they didnt measure anything.

I will have to measure them up when I get a second and make sure eveything checks out.

Whats the service limit on a main journal - .0001"-.0002"?

 

[delta448]

If you bore the mains larger side-to-side then the block is junk. Oversized bearing on top of that then you're left with no crush and no oil clearance.

First, thank you very much for posting. I appreciate your help.

Second, could you tell us how a machinist generally deals with a mains bore that is too large? Does it always require a whole new block? I understand that insufficient crush is the issue with my idea (along with the too tight clearance 90 degrees from the parting line created by too little crush), but what -if anything- can be done to retain the most deck height on a conventional mains align hone/bore?

 

[spooled_u_1st]

Well alright, I never had the machine shop measure the journals, he just thought intiailly that he couldn't do it so they didnt measure anything.

I will have to measure them up when I get a second and make sure eveything checks out.

Whats the service limit on a main journal - .0001"-.0002"?

I looked in my Chilton's and Haynes. The Chilton's didn't have it listed. The Haynes said not specified for the out-of-round limit.

Maybe someone with a Mitsubishi factory service manual can look.

 

[treebonker]

Tolerance for the main bores are 2.4016 - 2.4024. 1 thou for OOR are typical and half that range for any performance builds. At the parting line it doesn't matter as much. Align honing will give tolerance within 2 tenth and a true alignment, so it may not be needed but highly recommended. If you spun a bearing then you should have it machined.

I wouldn't know what you can do to fix a larger bore, unless there are oversized O.D bearings as they do for the cams. 8 tenth over the upper limit, I've seen ran without issue.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well thanks to the responses everyone. I went back down to the shop tonight to pick the block and crank back up. I talked to him for a few minutes tonight and he has contacted two other machine shops about this project and says that neither of them had the tools to be able to do this. So now I'm stuck with no ideas.

I bought this car with intentions of just to have another nice 2g. I will eventually bolt on other things: like turbo's, intercoolers etc. but for now I'm not shooting for any HP gains.

I would just like to have a factory motor with strong parts and good machining.

The only reason why I'm having the align hone done is because I put a set of ARP Main Studs in the block.

I will also be using all factory parts and ACL race bearings.

Simple solution. Just use stock main clamps. They have been proven to handle rediculous power anyway.

 

[TOONAH]

I had my 7 bolt aligned honed in Chicago. My machinist had to farm it out to a specialist.
A torque plate must be fitted as a substitute to the head. I had him use the arp mains and head studs I provided. The whole purpose of the mains align hone was to ensure the alignment of the cylinder bores with the mains bore. Since I planned on and have installed Mahle pistons with 0.0015 piston to cylinder wall clearance, I felt it essential that the align hone be done. The ACL Race bearings and new crankshaft plastiqauged out to exactly 0.002". Incidently I now have to take the head back off for two reasons. One to replace the PCI oil pump stubby shaft with the Mitsu oem one. The PCI stubby shaft does not have
the oil groove in it. Also I want to replace the Cometic HG with this one:

 

[Defiant]

Eh, the torque plate idea is still undetermined. But we have a big argu... discussion thread about that.

If you don't have access to one, don't panic.

 

[92awddsm]

Well thanks to the responses everyone. I went back down to the shop tonight to pick the block and crank back up. I talked to him for a few minutes tonight and he has contacted two other machine shops about this project and says that neither of them had the tools to be able to do this. So now I'm stuck with no ideas.

I bought this car with intentions of just to have another nice 2g. I will eventually bolt on other things: like turbo's, intercoolers etc. but for now I'm not shooting for any HP gains.

I would just like to have a factory motor with strong parts and good machining.

The only reason why I'm having the align hone done is because I put a set of ARP Main Studs in the block.

I will also be using all factory parts and ACL race bearings.

Remove the girdled caps, take them to a production machine shop, and have them flycut .010" off the mating surface, then take it back to the auto machine shop and have them align hone it.

Align boring is used to remove large amount of material with an actual boring bar. This is only used to roughly size the mains but still has to be finished with an align hone.

Align hone is to remove very small amounts of material using an actual hone with stone shoes. Align hone is mainly to finish size the bore diameters.

Either process requires removing material from the main cap mating surface.

The reason your machine shop cant do it is more than likely because his cap cutter is designed to cut individual caps and cant accommodate the full girdle.

 

[delta448]

^Thanks for the good info and clarification. And thanks for jumping in on this thread, both of you.
I've edited my first post, left my mistaken idea there though.