Burning Oil and Coolant after rebuild - Please help...

[Enraged78]

Hey all,

I've already exhausted the search functions, and haven't found anything that I have not checked yet, so here it goes.

A while back, I posted that I was having a coolant leak problem on my freshly built Ross/Eagle 7-bolt. My mods are listed in my profile, so if you would like to see exactly what I have, please look there. I found that after tearing the head off the motor, I was leaking coolant between the MLS head gasket and the block. The head was straight and not leaking at all. Apparently, even though the block passed the straightedge and RA tests, it still had a wierd low spot on the upper edge of #2 cylinder. As a result, I dropped the motor, dissasembled it, and had it decked. It was tested shortly after, and was great. The block was hot-tanked, washed, and dried with air. I put the motor back together, checking bearing clearences, which were absolutely phenomenal. Everything looked great, crank endplay was at the lowest allowable limit. I put the motor in the car, and pressure tested the system to 23lbs. (my 1G BOV leaks at 23 lbs, so I can't go any higher), and fired the car up. The car starts right up on the first crank. No leaks of any kind, either on the floor, coming from the motor, anything.

I decided to wait to test drive the car until the next day. It was dark and rainy out, and I wanted to see if there were any strange leaks from the car just in case. I had my logger on the car during the test drives, and everything was outstanding. Coolant temps were a rock solid 193F, never budging. Fuel trims were 2.9% on the low and 4.1% on the mid. A/F's were 14.7-15.3 on cruise according to DSMlink, and a shop wideband test in the tailpipe verified they were pretty close. Timing was left stock for the time being, full throttle A/F's are at 11.2 to 1.

In short, the car was perfect, and boosting 15lbs. on my 14b. Later that day, I fill the tank up after driving about 100 trouble free miles. I go on another trip that night, and notice that the car has an odd 'stumble' every once in a while. Soon afterward, I can't go WOT past 4200 RPM, as the car will detonate HARD. DSMLink monitors about 10+ counts of timing retard, meaning I'm getting a LOT of detonation. I turn the boost down to 10lbs, which stops the detonation. I do another pressure test, and the car is still holding 23lbs with no leaks. I deduce that I got a tank of bad gas, and go fill the car up with 100 octance after running the tank dry.

The car now no longer stumbles, but I have a large problem. The car now will let out an intermittent large white plume of smoke at idle. It will only do this after I've been under boost, and cruising for a while. If I drive a couple of miles, get into the turbo, and then come to a stop light, the car will do it's best James Bond DB7 impression at a light. I hit the gas, and the smoke dissapears. The car smells of unburned fuel, oil, and coolant under boost. It will not smoke when cold, only when fully warm. The car does not smell or smoke at cruise, or WOT, only when idle for about 20 seconds after criuse. The car burned 1 Quart of oil and 1 Quart of coolant after 400 miles. The white smoke from the tailpipe smells of burning coolant and oil.

After searching the forums, I did the following: Compression test, Leak Down Test, TDC/Timing belt test, and turbo shaft play test.
The Compression test was excellent, with all four cylinders within 3PSI of each other.
Leak down test was 2PSI for each cylinder (charged at 100PSI, held 98 PSI), holding for 10 minutes, except for #3, which I accidently left charged for about an hour. NO LEAKS of any kind, pressure was excellent, and coolant did not bubble or rise with the pressure.
TDC/Timing belt test indicated that timing was dead on. TDC was exactly where the timing marks on the cams was, indicating perfect timing.
Turbo shaft play was near non-existant, with 1/8 inch lateral, and 1/8 inch vertical play.
Vacuum is around 17-18 inches of Mercury at idle. Spark plugs are BPR7ES's and the plug color was very good. Incidentally, the car is also very hard to start after sitting for a day or two. It can take two or three keys to fire up.

The only ideas that I have are my turbo seals are going out on my tired 14b, but shaft play indicates otherwise.

Does anyone have any ideas on what this could possibly be? I'm going out of my mind on this one. I'm sorry for the book, but wanted as much information for the group as possible. Hopefully, someone else will get some information from my experiences.

Thanks,
Matt.

 

[TSIfreek]

I would go with a Mitsubishi stock head gasket. Sounds like your problems are the sealing of the block and head surfaces. I have heard of a new composite head gasket that is out as well just use the search and should come up with it.

 

[Enraged78]

I would go with a Mitsubishi stock head gasket. Sounds like your problems are the sealing of the block and head surfaces. I have heard of a new composite head gasket that is out as well just use the search and should come up with it.

Seeing as how this is the second MLS head gasket I've had sealing issues with, I'm starting to think the same thing. I've also noticed that people who are running the MLS gasket are torquing them past the recommended ARP spec of 75 ft/lbs. with the ARP moly lube.

My end goals with this car are in the 400-450 crank HP range, which the stock gasket can easily cover with ARP hardware. I'm going to pull the exhaust manifold and LICP to check the condition of the turbo. If I find that they are OK, (I.E. no wet exhaust ports, no oil in the LICP), I'm going to go back to the stock composite gasket.

Thanks for your post,
Matt.

 

[dnhieu]

after getting it hot and cold a few times did you go back and retorque the head studs?

 

[Enraged78]

after getting it hot and cold a few times did you go back and retorque the head studs?

No, as the last time I tried that the ARP's held perfect torque. I was told that this is unnecessary and a bad idea at times. If you know otherwise, please let me know.

Thanks,
Matt.

 

[Enraged78]

Update: It looks like that when I installed the factory oil cooler, I may have over-torqued it. I used plenty of Lok-Tite, but wasn't thinking when I tightened the bolt, and used a big 1/2 inch rachet on it. This explains having oil in the coolant, the loss of oil, and coolant to a certain extent. This does not explain the white smoke at idle. It's possible that both the oil cooler and the turbo seals have failed, giving me the symptoms I'm seeing. Compression and leak down are too good for me to believe that this is a head gasket problem, especially with a freshly decked head and block.

I'm searching for a factory cooler in the area. If I can't find one, I might have to go with an Evo oil housing with an external oil cooler, and might have to upgrade my little 14b sooner than I thought. Looks like 12's on the 14b might never be.

I'll update this thread as I find things.

Thanks,
Matt.

 

[Enraged78]

Update #2. The car decided not to start after sitting for a day or two. Troublshooting it for an hour revealed that the Crank Angle Sensor decided to take a crap on me. After pulling everything apart, I found three things that were contributing to this problem.

1. The crank angle sensor wiring rubbed against the timing belt. It apparently had been doing this for a while, and explains some of the stumbling. Crank endplay was still perfect, so crankwalk is not an issue. Got a new sensor and timing belt to put on.

2. The oil cooler had in fact been crushed. Picked up a B&M cooler, Evo III oil housing, and AN lines to piece the kit together. Mouning the B&M in a 2G is a bi***, but I think I found enough room in the fender well with some creative cutting and brackets.

3. The 14B has officially gone south. I had a kinked coolant return line on the turbo (my fault, but it was in a place where I couldn't see until everything was apart), which caused coolant to back flow into the compressor housing. I was under the impression that this couldn't happen due to the turbo's design, but this is not the case. The turbo puked about a cup of coolant when I pulled it. I eleminiated all the coolant lines and capped the four lines for turbo coolant supply and oil cooler coolant supply with coolant caps and clamps. I then picked up a Evo III GT, stainless oil feed line, and all new hardware to mount it. It's not all bad, though, as the 14b has had a long, hard life, and the exhaust housing now has more cracks in it than I care to see on any turbo. They are all in the usual places, in the housing itself, around the wastegate passage, etc.

I will post my complete results when I get the car fully back together. I also found that some of my parts had warped over the years, such as the O2 sensor housing (where it mates to the turbo), my J-pipe flange, and a few other things. I am planing all mating surfaces to eliminate any possible exhaust leaks.

Thanks,
Matt.

 

[dnhieu]

No, as the last time I tried that the ARP's held perfect torque. I was told that this is unnecessary and a bad idea at times. If you know otherwise, please let me know.

Thanks,
Matt.

yes its very good to go recheck to see if they are the same torque! i mean it cant hurt anything and i am going to do it. its probably even better that go back and check it because your running a mls head gasket. also did you use copper spray to help you seal it better?

im sorry to hear all these problems have hit you all at once. i know my turbo is going out the door and it blows white smoke while in heavy boost but didnt want to say anything because of the point system they have on this sight (wouldnt want somone to leave me bad feed back for trying to help you narrow down your problem). the only diffrence between your turbo and my turbo is the fact that yours has no shaft play and mine has a ton. be careful of that evo 3 gt turbo because i have read in a few cases of people having problems with them.

good luck and keep us informed
david

 

[Enraged78]

Last update:

I thought it would be nice to update this thread for anyone who searches these terms. After following the advice of other members on this forum, I went and re-torqued the head studs. The small amount of coolant loss I had after replacing the turbo, CAS, and oil cooler is now completely gone. After letting the car sit for a day, I went and used a beam-type wrench, pulled the valve cover, removed each nut on the stud in the correct "clock" order, applied more ARP lube, and two-step torqued the nuts to 35, then 85 ft. lbs. Each nut was done seperately to ensure proper gasket sealing. Upon removing each nut from the stud, I found three nuts that were not the same torque as the rest. I believe that this was due to a combination of using a 'click type' torque wrench, and some stretching of the studs.

The car now pulls like it never has before. It will spin all four tires on dry pavement with the clutch fully out, fuel trims are in near perfect check (low trim is -2%, mid trim is +4%), and after a little bit of tweaking of WOT fuel curve and timing, the car runs stone perfect. I'm getting 22+ miles to gallon in 80% city driving, and having a lot of fun in the meantime.

Thanks,
Matt.

 

[bryanwheat]

So you were talking about running 15 psi on a fresh motor. That alone is not a good thing to do untill you break it in, I always disconnect the wg actuator on a new motor to insure that the engine breaks in well. Also what head gasket are you using (cometic, mitsu 4 layer, copper) DO NOT USE THE STOCK. Regardless to what all of you have hears the stock gasket is ok, but if you are gonna be making over stock boost use a metal gasket, the stockers are junk, even with the arp studs. If you are looking at an alternitave to the mls gaskets than get on the jackson auto machine site and order the ajusa head gasket. It is good up to 400 hp and shouls work great in your ap. Did you resurface the head at all. That just seams so wierd, i have never had a problem with the mls gaskets sealing, unless you use stock bolts. But other than that never have i had one leak. Out of all of them the mitsu 4 layer is the best at sealing. What ever you do, do not use the stock one, you will hate your self, just get the ajusa ane be on your way. good luck.

 

[Enraged78]

So you were talking about running 15 psi on a fresh motor. That alone is not a good thing to do untill you break it in, I always disconnect the wg actuator on a new motor to insure that the engine breaks in well. Also what head gasket are you using (cometic, mitsu 4 layer, copper) DO NOT USE THE STOCK. Regardless to what all of you have hears the stock gasket is ok, but if you are gonna be making over stock boost use a metal gasket, the stockers are junk, even with the arp studs. If you are looking at an alternitave to the mls gaskets than get on the jackson auto machine site and order the ajusa head gasket. It is good up to 400 hp and shouls work great in your ap. Did you resurface the head at all. That just seams so wierd, i have never had a problem with the mls gaskets sealing, unless you use stock bolts. But other than that never have i had one leak. Out of all of them the mitsu 4 layer is the best at sealing. What ever you do, do not use the stock one, you will hate your self, just get the ajusa ane be on your way. good luck.

The motor wasn't fresh. I pulled it apart after putting 3,000 miles on it, and 1,500 of those were break-in. The head was decked, and the block was decked for the second build. Bearing wear was excellent. My initial break in involved 20 minutes of cold running at idle (140 Degrees F), 3 hours low load cycle (160 Degrees F), and 1,500 miles of running at no boost. The head gasket I'm using is a Mitsu MLS. The new gasket I installed was also an MLS. I honestly believe that the sealing issues I had were more due to the inaccuracy of a click-type torque wrench than anything else. Also, after speaking to an ARP engineer, I have found that ARP studs may need as much as five full cycles before they finish stretching. They have this information available on their web site as well.

Thanks,
Matt.

 

[bryanwheat]

Well good luck on that man. Hope it works out for you.

 

[Enraged78]

Update: I had a crack in my head through the water jacket, and my turbo was leaking oil through the seals. Replaced the head with a 1G and the Evo III GT with an MHI Evo III, and no more leaks.

Matt.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Well thanks for this thread Matt I have a lot of these symtoms and couldnt figure where to start but you have given me some idea's.

 

[Enraged78]

Well thanks for this thread Matt I have a lot of these symtoms and couldnt figure where to start but you have given me some idea's.

This was actually driving me quite crazy for a while. Compression tests and leakdown showed everything was fine. I had some minor gasket leaks with the MLS, but nothing that would explain the mess of coolant I had coming out my exhaust. I replaced two head gaskets during this fiasco with no luck at all. The coolant would also vaporize in the exhaust ports, so the ports were dry whenever I checked them. I finally pulled the head off and sent it to be pressure tested. The machinist found a crack through the water jacket on the right port of the #3 exhaust runner. I replaced the head with a freshly built 1G head and OEM gasket, bolted it to my built bottom end with ARP hardware, and coolant level has been absolutely rock solid ever since. I finished this swap about a month ago, and figured I'd update it for eveyone's reference. The turbocharger problems were due to too much oil pressure (I had a high pressure line from the Evo III oil housing routed to the turbo), too much crankcase pressure (faulty PCV, it would rattle right, but didn't seal 100%) and a blow off valve that was leaking like a sieve. The combination of the three caused the Evo GT to eat it's seals. I finshed swapping a new MHI Evo III (I used a stainless line connected to the head oil source), along with a water/alch injection kit, bored PCV connected to a catchcan, along with the breather, and a Greddy RS will be joining it this afternoon. I'll be sending my old turbo to TC.com for a post mortem, and will post the results in the proper thread.

I've learned a tremendous amount during my build of this car, but one thing's for sure: getting over 200HP/liter out of a 2G 7bolt block is not the easiest of tasks.

Good luck,
Matt.

 

[Mark90gst]

sorry to hear all the problems, im also pushing coolant to, bad mls or something, it is on a new motor as well, so it has to come off, new gaskets and o-ring the head or block.
good luck

 

[Enraged78]

sorry to hear all the problems, im also pushing coolant to, bad mls or something, it is on a new motor as well, so it has to come off, new gaskets and o-ring the head or block.
good luck

Thanks for the kind words, and I'm sorry to hear you have to deal with the same thing. If I can offer you one piece of advice: get the head pressure tested by an independant shop. The best shop I can recommend is Victor Research in East Hartford, Ct. They've helped me out more times than I can count. If I had done that the first time, I never would have gone through all this madness. I've been told that O-ringing the block is better than the head, but then you have to pull everything apart again, and it's still only necessary if you're shooting for 500+ WHP. I was also never really happy with the MLS gaskets. They did their job well, but I always found a little bit of trace coolant on the gasket when I pulled it, and this was twice with a new gasket. Buschur recommends the OEM gasket with ARP hardware for applications up to 500 crank HP. I stuck with that combo and was very pleased with it. Everything's been great since then. Now I just have to finish tuning...

Good luck,
Matt.

 

[mavisky]

For the record the engine does need to see some boost to help seat the rings while breaking the motor in. The most important thing is having a safe tune for the amount of boost you intend to run. When I broke my last motor in I had the boost set to around 15psi on a 14b and the engine's still running extremely strong right now without any issues related to that.

Also the stock headgasket is fine for most people. I know multiple users making well into the 300+hp to the wheels range on stock headgaskets and stock headbolts even.

 

[andymoraitis]

So you were talking about running 15 psi on a fresh motor. That alone is not a good thing to do untill you break it in, I always disconnect the wg actuator on a new motor to insure that the engine breaks in well. Also what head gasket are you using (cometic, mitsu 4 layer, copper) DO NOT USE THE STOCK

Wow, that's so wrong I don't know where to start.

Boost is helpful during the break in process to help seat the rings. This is of course moot if you enjoy blowbly. While crazy amounts aren't needed, 14-16 psi for the first 30 miles is beneficial. After that, you can run whatever you'll be running daily.

Also, the OEM composite gasket has held more power than you can dream of. Experienced tuners have eclipsed the 600 WHP mark on them and still experienced reliability. What blows them is knock, not boost. If you can't tune, it really doesn't matter what kind of HG you put on. All of them will eventually surrender to preignition or detonation if it's persistent and severe enough.