boost limit on a big16g

[awdburnout]

okay, im new to the site i have a built 2.4 liter motor on my 92 talon tsi, i was just wondering what kind of boost i can push out of it i have it tuned for 18psi as of now, i plan to get a bigger turbo very soon i just want to see what i can do with the 16g ported and clipped with the 34mm flapper mod , i was planning on running it at 24psi no sure...i have the usual things done to the car, 255lph fuel pump, 550cc injectors, and a safc. let me know what u think.

 

[Jeffee]

I think its like 50psi but i mean i think you should use the SEARCH BUTTON to get Exact Numbers... or maybe vfaq.... but i think big16g can actually take 60-65psi... but not sure exactly SEARCH

 

[awdburnout]

Originally posted by Jeffee
I think its like 50psi but i mean i think you should use the SEARCH BUTTON to get Exact Numbers... or maybe vfaq.... but i think big16g can actually take 60-65psi... but not sure exactly SEARCH

hey everyone i think we have a jokster on our hands...hahahaha u silly joker your so funny wow thanks for all the really good info i think i will run it at around 75psi to be safe...thanks again...queer

 

[Megaman]

haha

i dont know. 24psi might just produce hot air on a 16g..maybe 21-22 psi will be more effecient..u do have a fmic right?

 

[dsmturboawd]

just keep upping the boost until you get too much knock.

 

[14.5 drift]

I doubt that it will hold 21 on the 2.4. I have no hands on with a 2.4 or a big 16, but it seems like 21-23 is pretty common for the 2.0. 21-23 times .833 (displacement disadvantage of 2liter) and I am gettin 17.5 to 19 psi. Hope that helps.

 

[95AWD_TSI_TALON]

what I would do is keep it under 20 pounds. The 16g's can't last with anything over that. My turbo had very little shaft paly about 2 months ago. I put in a built motor and ever since then I had been running 25psi and last week it suddenly was down to 15psi with NO boost leaks!!! And watching my datalogs I can see the turbo flowing between 33 to 35.9 lb/min in the same gear pulls. So now my turbo is shot.

 

[awdburnout]

thanks for your help...i run it around 18psi and every once and awhile around 20psi

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

20psi is all you can run on a Big 16G? I dont know about that one padres. I used to run 18psi on my 14b with no probs so I know a Big 16g is capable of reliably holding over 20psi. I sold my 14b with 200k miles and zero shaft play.

 

[95AWD_TSI_TALON]

yes you can run 30psi if you wanted to on a big16g.......BUT you are still over running it. You will kill the center cartridge way faster at higher boost levels because its not made to. and if your running that high of boost I hope you had a fmic cuz 18psi on a 14b is pushing hot air especialy threw a smic. I mean 20psi would pull just as hard as 18psi if you are on a smic so why kill the turbo faster?????????

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

Originally posted by 95AWD_TSI_TALON
yes you can run 30psi if you wanted to on a big16g.......BUT you are still over running it. You will kill the center cartridge way faster at higher boost levels because its not made to. and if your running that high of boost I hope you had a fmic cuz 18psi on a 14b is pushing hot air especialy threw a smic. I mean 20psi would pull just as hard as 18psi if you are on a smic so why kill the turbo faster?????????

Look bro, you are talking about old news here with me. I already know that 18psi is stressful on a 14B. And who said anything about 30psi? Not I. But 24psi should be feasable. BTW no, I didnt have a fmic, but I did it none the less. I know now (the relationship between timing advance) what I didnt know 6 years ago when I ran 18psi. But I ran 18psi for a long time with no damage to the center cartridge or what nots.
PEACE!

 

[candela]

Gosh this poor site is constantly being whord by immature little 16 yr olds now isn't it?

awdburnout: Big16g can make more power easily at 22+ psi how you just need to make sure everything else (tuning, supporting mods, weather...etc) is squared away. Second to last time I was at the track we were really pushing a friends Big16g. Running 25psi and making higher traps and more HP then we were on 24, 23, 22...etc Granted it was holding it to 7k was pretty amazing to as my Big16g wouldnt hold more than 23psi past 5500 or so. That seemed to be about our limit. Truthfully I am not sure if other have made more power with more, but a good range is usually about 18-23psi for 16g's. If yoru settup doesnt work right then that heat from that small comp wheel wont do to much for ya.

Aside from what a lot of other think and say they have no real experience with this stuff. Tons of people think that x boost level on x turbo is just to much and its out of its efficiency range and it wont make power. Well often times it WILL make more power if yoru settup allows so. Efficiency range may include reliability of the turbo an drunnign a t25 @18psi may make more power than one at 15psi but it probably will not last as long.

If you want to see what that settup will do then go for it. Good luck,

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

Originally posted by Jeffee
I think its like 50psi but i mean i think you should use the SEARCH BUTTON to get Exact Numbers... or maybe vfaq.... but i think big16g can actually take 60-65psi... but not sure exactly SEARCH

Hey Candela, you sure this guy doesnt know what he's talking about? jk

 

[candela]

Hey Candela, you sure this guy doesnt know what he's talking about? jk

I dont know if its just me... but this site--IMO-- has just turned to "almost" crap. I have been seeing the same posts, questions and arguments for 2 years on this site and I still answer people (to an extent ofcourse) and don't give such stupid remakrs such as that guys

It doesn't upset me, its just that it seems that this site is turning into the rest of the world... if you know what I mean. I don't want to babble on so I shall shutith thy lips

 

[crankbender]

Sigh....here is a lesson. Also please refer to this thread.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107653&highlight=cars+define

Now let me see if i can help yall out a bit specifically about this thread.

Aside from what a lot of other think and say they have no real experience with this stuff. Tons of people think that x boost level on x turbo is just to much and its out of its efficiency range and it wont make power. Well often times it WILL make more power if yoru settup allows so. Efficiency range may include reliability of the turbo an drunnign a t25 @18psi may make more power than one at 15psi but it probably will not last as long.

Nah efficiency range doesn't include life. however efficiency range is not based on boost pressure it is based on pressure differential.

Look bro, you are talking about old news here with me. I already know that 18psi is stressful on a 14B. And who said anything about 30psi? Not I. But 24psi should be feasable. BTW no, I didnt have a fmic, but I did it none the less. I know now (the relationship between timing advance) what I didnt know 6 years ago when I ran 18psi. But I ran 18psi for a long time with no damage to the center cartridge or what nots.

Weather or not a boost level is feasable or stressfull is based on flow rate. Take a look at the compressor map i have attached. If you look at the left side you will see that it is not in boost but in pressure multiplier. Now assuming you are getting 14 psia at the inducer (not likely but hey) and funning 20 psig in the intake of the motor you have a 2.4 increase (20psig+14.7=35 psia). this turbo will flow approximately 35-50 lbs at that level and still be efficient. but how much will the car flow at that pressure???

Now this is a function of RPM and volumetric efficiency and this is predominately based on things other than the turbo....


The moral of this story is: Almost all turbos will from from 8-30 psi of intake pressure. Their efficiency at these pressures will change from car to car, and is based on the particular setup. If you want to know what a turbo will flow safely you need to know RPM, displacement, and VE.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

sport compact car had a whole right up for turbo efeciency and how to figure out what psi and what everything will make the car safely run the turbo and of coures effecentcy.
Andrew

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

Originally posted by crankbender
Sigh....here is a lesson. Also please refer to this thread.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107653&highlight=cars+define

Now let me see if i can help yall out a bit specifically about this thread.

Not trying to be funny because I am following you, but I think you just blew some people's mind here. I see gears grinding to a halt.

 

[crankbender]

Anybody can understand this information....It just takes some time. I have been doing this stuff for years so understand it better than many, but you can learn the basics in a few hours if you don't have to learn the theory behind it..... If you are really interested in making your car fast take the time to learn. You will be better off for it in the end.

If anybody wants a discussion in detail about this stuff some time maybe we can set up a chat discussion somewhere. Of course everybody would be invited.

 

[candela]

:laugh: crank is awesome.....
I follow some of his posts to and just read them. Sometimes I learn stuff, sometimes I don't...but he is an "engineer" after all (right ?)

Who ever knows VE anyway? hehe Temps are usually a standard in mapping at what 74* or so? THere are lots to take into account...
Not a crankbender answer: you can run 24-25psi on that turbo on a 4G63 if the temps (outside and to the intake) are down and its got a healthy A/F ratio....

 

[crankbender]

Not a crankbender answer: you can run 24-25psi on that turbo on a 4G63 if the temps (outside and to the intake) are down and its got a healthy A/F ratio....

Hey Hey HEY wait a second....

What turbo is "that" turbo
Is that psia or psig????
4g63----do you have the turbo cams? 6 or 7 bolt? CR?
so you have a CAI right?
what do you mean by "healthy"?
how are you measuring the ratio?

Those are all questions that need to be answered and that is just 1 sentence....this is the inharent problem with these questions.

VE is based on the intake and exhauset...for simplicity use this

Stock .75 modified by the following(raise it by this much
3in exhaust turbo back with new 02 housing and no cat, bends, or muffler (.1)
Intake (all new piping done right)(.05)
Intercooler upgrade (done right)(.02)
Cams (.05-.1)
porting of head is very dependent on rpm
turbo (-.1 to .1)

This is not really all that close but it gives you an idea...most modified street cars are running around .8


Oh yeah VE changes as your flow changes...therefore it is based on pressure, RPM, and temps.

crank is awesome.....
I follow some of his posts to and just read them. Sometimes I learn stuff, sometimes I don't...but he is an "engineer" after all (right ?)

Yeah getting my second degree this year (well the other degree lacks 8 hours of personell management....phook that when i am already working)



Give me 30 mins and I will give the original poster an answer!!!!

 

[candela]

What turbo is "that" turbo
Is that psia or psig????
4g63----do you have the turbo cams? 6 or 7 bolt? CR?
so you have a CAI right?
what do you mean by "healthy"?
how are you measuring the ratio?

You know I just realized he has a 2.4L... that makes a HUGE difference in VE at simlar RPMS to a 4G63.

Obviously I am talking about a stock 1G 4G63 (92tsi) 6/7 is no difference in this case and teh CR is stock 7.8:1 which also doesn't make much of a difference as these are quite old motors and the variance in actual pressure that one motor will make from the next can vary a LOT. Most all anyone talks abotu is g (gauge pressure) anyway Mr. Engineer

(.1)3in exhaust turbo back with new 02 housing and no cat, bends, or muffler (.1)
Intake (all new piping done right)(.05)
Intercooler upgrade (done right)(.02)
Cams (.05-.1)
porting of head is very dependent on rpm
turbo (-.1 to .1)

How can you figure? I know you know that variances can be seen with so many different factors so I wont start to tackle this. Also what is "done right" incorporate?

Oh yeah VE changes as your flow changes...therefore it is based on pressure, RPM, and temps

exaclty so since its variable its hard to figure.

*once again in NON-CRANKBENDER terms p ) now that I see you have a 2.4 that turbo will most likely not be holding those kinds of pressure my (and friends) 4G63 (stock settup--crank) was.... however I am sure you can still have fun with it and make some crazy torque down low...

 

[crankbender]

first part

 

[crankbender]

second part

 

[crankbender]

pt 3

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

You guys are nuts! Whats the friggin answer already!! :laugh: