best headers for 420a 95 talon

[pazsion]

I've been googleing my butt of for 3 hours, looking for dyno results for a eagle talon with a 6" steel mesh and various exhaust mods. for comparison.

I'm looking for the best headers i could buy for the talon i have. currently just platium 4s and 6" steelmesh into a 3" velocity stack. I feel it gets 3-10hp & torque just from the intake.

so i'm looking for dynos for exhaust headers on the talon with minimal other mods. to get an idea of some headers that would work well with this setup..I'll be going custom x2 3" after the headers..

 

[Locke]

WTF?

What are your goals for the vehicle, when do you want the power, and how much are you willing to spend?

 

[randizle]

3in is a little big for a motor only pushing 140hp,keep in mind you also need back pressure,you can keep puting on bolt on's but if your exhaust is 3in all the way back your going to loose a few ponies.

 

[Boost92awd]

^^^ Exactly unless your planning on going turbo 3" is over kill.

 

[Locke]

He may lose some low end torque with 3", but not high end power. Regardless, 3" is overkill for NA motors.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/fre...8578-exhaust-straight-scoop-backpressure.html

 

[bullettdsm]

I didn't put 3" on the NA until I broke 200whp.

MB

 

[chris712vt]

I'm running 16psi and still only a 60mm exhaust (slightly less than 2.5") haha

 

[Locke]

I didn't put 3" on the NA until I broke 200whp.

MB

Any marked improvement with your switching to 3"?

What were you using previously?

 

[bullettdsm]

Any marked improvement with your switching to 3"?

What were you using previously?

Lol, I gained .8 with the switch

We've been working on the problem of being stuck at 204whp. I'm now at the point that I believe I'm cammed out (Crower 3 Race). I've tried to get a special grind from my usual vendors, but no dice. I'm guessing I gotta get in touch with Crower and talk to them directly.

MB

 

[dcshoeco1041]

the 4-1 header gives you more low end torque right? thats what i have and i love em. 4-1 header full 3" exhaust no cat, downpipe, 120mm hks muffler

 

[all_motor_mike]

the 4-1 header gives you more low end torque right? thats what i have and i love em. 4-1 header full 3" exhaust no cat, downpipe, 120mm hks muffler

typically a 4-1 will give u more power up top where the 4-2-1 will give u more power under the curve.


mike

 

[pazsion]

i think its a safe bet i'm pulling 160 mostly stock.. minimum =P

I'm thinking i'll spend the $100-$300 on a gps dyno thingy..Hope i'll finda deal on craigslist or something i dont have that kinda money.. i think those are pretty close estamates.. on hp etc etc...till i find a dyno w/top speed around here.. ( How do u force air into a car inside a building? does that fan simulate 70mph air flow well? )


plan on ignition idea within a year. some sorta computer piggy back into the coil off the wire..meant for a bmw with turbo..mod.. uses the same hook up.. then somehow run a coil or capacitor off the wires to the plugs.. anyone ever use a lightining cap before? usually used in audio for a voltage boost.. say 12 to 14 v.. with alot of amps..
hopeing to get more then nology with less expenses.. also bypasses the ecu's voltage/fuel cuts..

where do i want to go with this? where do i want the power..

well its a DD so fuel milage and durability are high priority. I even question raising the compression.. I would like 12:1 but some doubt they'll run well on 93?

some how increase the rocker ratio. to 1.75 for now.. till i get more money for other mods that go with going higher.. in cams/ratio.. higher then 1.75 would probably hurt longevity. But hopefuly would net 5-10hp gain from 1k to redline and beyond..

Send the rpms to 12k. I'm hopeing there is more power to be had as the rpms increase.
I'm thinking stock it could be good up to 10k? but i read and see failures in the same materials after 8.5k Is there a 420a doing sustained duty at 12k+? without going FUBAR N/A or Turbo? would compression help in this venture? And use the same ammount of fuel?

Bullet how high have you sent your rpms?

I've been working on getting better throttle response from below 3k rpm and have it keep pulling the same or more as it goes past 5500.. Imagine going into a hard 25mph damn near 180* turn with a buncha v-8's and v-10's on yur butt. And they have dual turbos and crap, some how u ended up in the lead after a wreck or something.. z i know just image ehhehe.. you've down shifted but you want to attempt 60-80 around this corner.. and keep that speed and accelerate on the way out.. So you shift up after diving into this turn.. you somehow hold the speed and dont wipe out.. and you floor it.. at 6k in say 5th.. and dump the clutch.. your hopeing it'll pull through and you can out gun these guys with your wits and hairbrained modifications.. you watch the rpm needle fall below 3k and your foot is to the metal.. In your mind and in your experience you know your engine sux below 4k and 6k it's sweet spot.. And you begin to dread your decision.

But a delightful roar, and a bone rattleing surge of power pegs you in your seat, and the rpms climb as if you were digging yourself out of a muddy pit.. up to and past your sweet spot.. allowing you to not only keep your position but gain on them a full second into the next corner..

I want the engine to try and rip the damn transmission out.. If the pedal is to the metal..
regardless of what speed the engine is spinning.. haveing more horsepower would definately help in this area.. And then still gain power the higher the rpms go..

 

[rstare]

WTF; your whole post is confusing I'm not to sure if your asking a question or just ranting...
You don't have 160whp or crank hp with a mostly stock 420a.
I believe you could run 12:1 CR on 93 octane. (Ask Mark)
10k for a stock 420a is unheard of.
And it sounds like your writing a book in last 3 paragraphs.

Edit: BTW, your new post has nothing to do with the thread title.

 

[pazsion]

xD yes it does! sometimes i do go off into a fantasy...but i try to keep it relevant, and i've learned that most don't like reading.. so i've shortened posts and try to leave out story telling..

headers is also a deciding factor with how high your rpms max out at.. as well as ecu/fuel/air less restriction = more rpm's despite the ammount of HP being produced..

and yes, going higher then 8.5k in a talon/eclipse is so far, completely unheard of, and mostly not even touched upon even in practice /theory.. i just notice in most dyno's the torque curve and hp curve do not cross..unless you've done some tuneing..but that cross happens often way before or @5500 rpm..and then stays static..or falls.. i want to keep it climbing..

most honda's on the other hand.. the curve never crosses.. and instead climbs with hp to peak... this is what i'd like.. increaseing scavangeing and increaseing the tumbling/vortex density.. during combustion, lower temps..should help in this.. this is how honda's do it.. the valve timing is set in honda's to encourage a vortex or tumbling action of the air inside the combustion chamber.. the talon engine attempts to do the same thing in diffrent ways.. i'll attempt slightly varied roller-rocker ratios to try and tune this.. it will take some tinkering and a dyno to see what's actually useful..

currently running 1.73 with 4g63 turbo roller-rockers..across both intake and exhaust. intake is advanced .5* and exhaust is retarded 1.5* my thinking is that this will open the intake sooner, and be open longer.. then exhaust will open later and be open much longer..
but lobe curve/duration is the biggest influence in this.. the roller-rocker mod seems to be most effective after 3k rpm..but is a diffrence that can be felt even after goin back to a stock ecu.. my previous modded ecu fried it's v-reg

i want as much hp and torque from 0-10k rpms as i can.. without an ecu this will be challengeing.. but if simple hardware can begin to start this..then adding an ecu later will only magnify or completely mess up everything..

it has been advised by several technicians with over 10yrs of experience specifically in talons.. that i not change my compression ratio.. more is doable if i leave this area alone they say..things like adding boost or more air/fuel.. diffrent types of fuels.. are more tolerable and tuneable if i leave the compression the way it is.. which is like 9.6?

soo.. if knowledge is present for a header(S) that seems to encourage this prefered tourque and HP curve.. that is what i'm seeking..

So far the only one's i know of is DC headers..3" and above..4-2-1 configuration.. but the dyno's i'm pulling this info from was from a honda h22 and f series big block 4cylinder..

3" will be beneficial for the higher rpm's desired..and offer the near zero back pressure i desire as well.. my custom header idea puts a 5" one peice section mid way of the headers.. in a 4-1-2 theory..
thinking the extra expansion chamber will keep the motor freely spinning.. and reduce the time of spin up. much like a dirt bike exhaust.. this would benefit the low end.. and high end. but biggest gains for this type of design have been @1k-4K regardless of type of vehicle it was installed on..

 

[Locke]

Crap, I just spent 30+ minutes makes a detailed reply to this, and lost it all when Firefox 4b7 crashed. I'm about sick of that.

xD yes it does! sometimes i do go off into a fantasy...but i try to keep it relevant, and i've learned that most don't like reading.. so i've shortened posts and try to leave out story telling..

headers is also a deciding factor with how high your rpms max out at.. as well as ecu/fuel/air less restriction = more rpm's despite the ammount of HP being produced..

Exhaust manifold is less likely to be the inhibitor of theoretical maximum RPM. As exhaust gas is compressible, the manifold will continue to flow (albeit proportionally worse) until exhaust back-pressure equals the pressure that the cylinder exerts on the exhaust.

Incoming air charge and fueling capabilities are far more likely to inhibit the theoretical maximum RPM of a motor. As engine RPM increases, the intake charge will thin out, and continue to do so, until the mass of air brought into the cylinder is not enough (assuming proper fuel) to continue increasing RPM. This is called choke, and will happened before the exhaust back-pressure inhibits further RPM.

Fuel, of course, must be proportional to air mass. The pump(s) must be able to provide the fuel needed for the air mass, and the injectors capable of flowing the proper amount. As fuel demand increases, any given injector will increase IDC. Too high a IDC will be both limiting, and potentially damaging to the injector itself.

The real limiter of maximum RPM is the ability of the rotating assembly ot keep itself together at these RPM's. Overall component strength, geometry, and balance effect this.

Of course, I am not saying exhaust modifications can't change flow characteristics of a motor, just that it is the least likely part of the engine to limit theoretical maximum RPM.

and yes, going higher then 8.5k in a talon/eclipse is so far, completely unheard of, and mostly not even touched upon even in practice /theory.. i just notice in most dyno's the torque curve and hp curve do not cross..unless you've done some tuneing..but that cross happens often way before or @5500 rpm..and then stays static..or falls.. i want to keep it climbing..

I've ridden in DSM's where the owner has taken RPM to 9.5k without fear, and did it several times. I'm sure many of the heavy hitters in the DSM community spin there engines to 10k+ RPM.

The torque and HP curves on American dyno's will always cross at 5252. Power is a function of torque and angular velocity. ( f[p]=t*v ) A dyno measures torque by measuring the time it takes to accelerate a known mass. Coupled with a measurement of engine RPM through ignition pick-up, power can be calculated. To give an output measured in units of Horsepower, the input units must be imperical and the conversion constant of 5252 is applied. ( f[p]=(t*v)/5252 ) With imperical input, the output of this function will be in Horsepower.

Now that you know how power is calculated, you can see how torque and hp curves will always cross at 5252rpm. Some dyno graphs do not show the curves cross at this point, but on these graphs you would notice two y-scales. y-sub-1 may have a range of {y | min_torque <= y <= max_torque} while y-sub-2 may have a range of {y | min_hp <= y <= max_torque}. Sharing the same domain allows these two graphs to be imposed on each other, but the difference in scales for a output more (or less) understandable by the person reading the graph.

most honda's on the other hand.. the curve never crosses.. and instead climbs with hp to peak... this is what i'd like.. increaseing scavangeing and increaseing the tumbling/vortex density.. during combustion, lower temps..should help in this.. this is how honda's do it.. the valve timing is set in honda's to encourage a vortex or tumbling action of the air inside the combustion chamber.. the talon engine attempts to do the same thing in diffrent ways.. i'll attempt slightly varied roller-rocker ratios to try and tune this.. it will take some tinkering and a dyno to see what's actually useful..

currently running 1.73 with 4g63 turbo roller-rockers..across both intake and exhaust. intake is advanced .5* and exhaust is retarded 1.5* my thinking is that this will open the intake sooner, and be open longer.. then exhaust will open later and be open much longer..
but lobe curve/duration is the biggest influence in this.. the roller-rocker mod seems to be most effective after 3k rpm..but is a diffrence that can be felt even after goin back to a stock ecu.. my previous modded ecu fried it's v-reg

See above for dyno stuffs.

Some engines stagger the intake valves per cylinder (two intake centerlines per cylinder) in order to promote tumbling or swirl as the charge enters the cylinder. This does promote low end power, economy, and smoothness. However, it also impedes maximum airflow, as I will demonstrate.

Given an interference engine, there is a limit to total maximum valve duration. With a staggered intake valve system, one valve opens before the other, and closes before the other. While promoting tumbling, this limits maximum potential airflow because during the early part of the duration, only one valve is open, and during the end of the duration, only one valve is open. Both valves are open for less than the overall duration. Given a certain maximum theoretical potential duration, reaching this point with a staggered setup would have less air flow than if both valves were locked together, both opening at the beginning and closing together at the end. Graphing valve duration and lift for both a staggered setup and locked setup would revel more area under the curve for the locked setup. More area under the curve = more potential.

i want as much hp and torque from 0-10k rpms as i can.. without an ecu this will be challengeing.. but if simple hardware can begin to start this..then adding an ecu later will only magnify or completely mess up everything..

Without an ECU on the 2gnt, it will be difficult to make any notable amounts of power. With the factory ECU, you will not be able to exceed ~7300 rpm, as this is when the ECU cuts fuel. To spin the engine faster, you will have to replace it.

it has been advised by several technicians with over 10yrs of experience specifically in talons.. that i not change my compression ratio.. more is doable if i leave this area alone they say..things like adding boost or more air/fuel.. diffrent types of fuels.. are more tolerable and tuneable if i leave the compression the way it is.. which is like 9.6?

High CR means a greater power spike during each power stroke. Given identical component strengths, geometry, and balance, a motor with a high CR will reach the limits of of the rotating assembly sooner. Likewise, a lower CR will put less power spikes against these parts, allowing for more RPM. Mind you, more CR will make more power.

The ability to tune a motor is dependent on the capabilities of the ECU and it's inputs, though the window for tuning error decreases as CR (or boost) increase.

soo.. if knowledge is present for a header(S) that seems to encourage this prefered tourque and HP curve.. that is what i'm seeking..

So far the only one's i know of is DC headers..3" and above..4-2-1 configuration.. but the dyno's i'm pulling this info from was from a honda h22 and f series big block 4cylinder..

3" will be beneficial for the higher rpm's desired..and offer the near zero back pressure i desire as well.. my custom header idea puts a 5" one peice section mid way of the headers.. in a 4-1-2 theory..
thinking the extra expansion chamber will keep the motor freely spinning.. and reduce the time of spin up. much like a dirt bike exhaust.. this would benefit the low end.. and high end. but biggest gains for this type of design have been @1k-4K regardless of type of vehicle it was installed on..

2-stroke engines use expansion chambers in there exhaust systems as a method of increasing exhaust back-pressure at lower RPMs. 2-stroke engines require a tuned exhaust system to provide a certain amount of back-pressure to keep the intake charge from passing through to the exhaust before combustion. An expension chamber will act as a bit of a muffler, where it will set up a self-canceling pulse to increase back-pressure. Ever notice why race cars don't use mufflers? (unless required by sanction) Even straight-through fart-can mufflers will create back-pressure. As most of the exhaust pulse is absorbed by packing material, some is still reflect back onto itself. This reduces sound, as the expense of limiting airflow. Baffled mufflers function entirely by reverting pulses back onto themselves. 2-stroke engines need expansion chambers, 4-stroke engines do not.


I hope this came out proper coherent. I may have been a bit hasty in my poor attempt to compose my thoughts.

edit: Also, I'm sure to have been broad on many subjects, and that there may even be errors. Don't really care.

 

[pazsion]

holy cow dude, no not broad rangeing too much, as it demonstrates very well what the thread is going on about.

Much thanks for sorting the simple and converting to gear head xD some of what i was talking about definately seemed lost in translation, but you nailed it.. i will probably come back to this post for some of the conversions xD

and wow, i was entirely wrong about the dirt-bike exhaust idea? but those systems have a small exit. a 5 inch chamber and dual 3" should encourage negative pressure, and scavenging.. i guess the idea of ram-air exhaust wouldn't stand up against the math either =/ would it be beneficial to have cooler flowing air going through the exhaust stream? or would it just pump out the front pipes even at 70mph.. i've been contemplateing a one way mechanisim to prevent this. current theory employs just a simple flap of metal.. under pressure it remains closed.. when it begins to equalize if enough velocity is gained to do so via simply placeing the pipeing up front.. with some sorta scoop..

Just playing with idea's until i scrounge up some stuff to put it together...brainstorming such as this definately helps in planning the original designs before putting it together.. what would theoretically make it pointless and why..how could it work.. and why again.. always love to learn something.. espeacially when it makes sense.. I thank you again!

 

[Locke]

I'm not sure what you mean by a "ram-air exhaust". If you're talking about somehow employing Bernoulli's principle in the exhaust, using vehicle speed to inject air into the exhaust to pull exhaust from the engine, you'd find that as speed increased you be filling the exhaust pipe with non-exhausted air. You'd need very large pipes to make something like that happen without it choking itself at speed. Even then, considering the largely varying characteristics of engine exhaust, a proper mathematical model would be very difficult and time consuming to sort. It would probably be more beneficial to use trial and error (on top of some generic equations) to build an effective system. This takes $$$.

For exhaust temperature, you generally want it as hot as possible for as long as possible. As it cools down, it becomes more dense. Dense air has more mass per volume (thats the definition of density) and will take more piston energy to drive the exhaust out as cold exhaust in the system becomes heavier and more difficult to push out.

 

[pazsion]

i'm looking at this 2001 neon my dad has, it's exhaust is a 4-1 into this huge cylinder i'd say a good 8-10" around.. it's got some good torque but i'm wondering what such a thing would do on the talon...

it's not a direct swap... it'd have to take some cuttin..

 

[2GbTalonGuy]

WTF...
Just buy a catback and forget about that ghetto shit. It will never sound good with a header into a coffee can.

 

[pazsion]

WTF...
Just buy a catback and forget about that ghetto shit. It will never sound good with a header into a coffee can.

well yea first mock up will be some ghetto shet xD

I have, and will continue to look for anyone who makes an exhaust resembleing these ideas.. know of any?

scoop and tubeing to the exhaust and the headers could be quite heavy..lots of stuff will need to be moved around, so i'll just work on the large expansion chamber-large pipeing idea's for now.. i can attache the other stuff once i've relocated the radiator.. all of this won't be touched on untill i get spare time and parts.. Finding parts, even if they are oem..that go along with the general idea..can save alot of time with fabrication, money...mess-up's don't hurt so much.. just getting this part done can test the scavengeing effects of the design.. and work out various things.. the cool thing about putting it together yourself, is you can modify the design. without cutting something up that could be sold. In the end, if things work right, someone might buy that ghetto thing xD

I prefer a certain type of stainless, haven't found the tubeing yet..or can't buy it xD

but the fart can sound has also been a center focus.. i don't want that.. a large radius pipe and sound deflection should produce a very low rumble instead...
or i can be lame and place a semi-non functional turbine in there.. xD
so instead of, bwagh! or pung pung chity choo choo.. it's phooosh..

since this one is a daily driver.. i want to stick to phoosh as much as possible xD and least weight possible..a turbo or similar things would add weight.

if low spin up speeds, hp and torque preservation over the range of rpms is desired..low end torque would be beneficial.

would it make more sense to place the expansion nearest the exhaust outlet? or have long runners as with traditional designs?

 

[jacobevan611]

I am literally in tears from reading this. I have never laughed so hard in my life.

 

[0r1landoDSM]

can someone just answer this really fast.. okay... is a 4-2-1 good for low end and is a 4-1 header good for top end? or is it the other way around. on a stock 420a what do you guys recommend is the best 1 to get??? or it doesnt really matter which 1 you get only where you want the power?

 

[necrotopsy]

^^

the headers don't make that much difference really on a stock engine. maybe 3-5 whp (if that). 4-1 is cheaper, and for high end power, 4-2-1 sounds better and is for mid range power.

if you wan't the high flow exhaust but don't want the "rice", go with a 4-1 header, high flow cat, (and here's the important part) A GOOD RESONATOR, and a magnaflow street series muffler. all of this should be 2.5"

boom there you go.

 

[pazsion]

<3

What is the question? revisted

k, baseing ideas off marketed designs.. that are dyno tested..and known theories of thermodynamics and aerodynamics.. or how air will flow.. I keep this in mind as i make these posts.. and i don't know everything..

I've never even made an exhaust.. i've always paid $500-$1000 for what i am told will work as desired.. and it somewhat has on other cars.. a 1.8 for instance.. 2.5" is optimal and various intake and other things are needed to be just right, or well researched.. or they perform poorly in combination with other mods etc..

The ones i have are oem? and cracking..right at the 4-1 junction.. where a heat plate used to bolt in. probably almost blew apart after the timing belt slipped..the exauhst would ring some times when it caught up to the fuel built up and got ignited..the exhaust valves on 3 were open...o.0 no valves were bent thankfully..bufords fixed her up.. but now i just need headers xD haha

I will grab an extra set at the pull yards..rent a hone and bore out the extra set xD to reduce weight and start parting together our idea's and theories.. what i want is a tuned exhaust.. which is mostly why this is drawn out and complicated and not straightforward and simple..

I want a tuned exhaust system, that is much lighter.. no flex pipe..i think aluminum should be ok to bolt up to the headers? or will temps not allow this?

How has carbon fiber stuff fared? anyone have experience with this?

Filament Wound Carbon Fiber Tubes

o.0 awesome priceing??

I have bought exhaust tips made completely out of the stuff... structureally sound but the outside would dry out and flake much like fiberglass does..

 

[teklein]

<3

What is the question? revisted

k, baseing ideas off marketed designs.. that are dyno tested..and known theories of thermodynamics and aerodynamics.. or how air will flow.. I keep this in mind as i make these posts.. and i don't know everything..

I've never even made an exhaust.. i've always paid $500-$1000 for what i am told will work as desired.. and it somewhat has on other cars.. a 1.8 for instance.. 2.5" is optimal and various intake and other things are needed to be just right, or well researched.. or they perform poorly in combination with other mods etc..

The ones i have are oem? and cracking..right at the 4-1 junction.. where a heat plate used to bolt in. probably almost blew apart after the timing belt slipped..the exauhst would ring some times when it caught up to the fuel built up and got ignited..the exhaust valves on 3 were open...o.0 no valves were bent thankfully..bufords fixed her up.. but now i just need headers xD haha

I will grab an extra set at the pull yards..rent a hone and bore out the extra set xD to reduce weight and start parting together our idea's and theories.. what i want is a tuned exhaust.. which is mostly why this is drawn out and complicated and not straightforward and simple..

I want a tuned exhaust system, that is much lighter.. no flex pipe..i think aluminum should be ok to bolt up to the headers? or will temps not allow this?

How has carbon fiber stuff fared? anyone have experience with this?

Filament Wound Carbon Fiber Tubes

o.0 awesome priceing??

I have bought exhaust tips made completely out of the stuff... structureally sound but the outside would dry out and flake much like fiberglass does..

For the love of God, what are you talking about?

You are going to hone a stock exhaust manifold to make it lighter?

Seriously, it is not this hard.