Benefits from STM tank to rail kit?

[ishnish]

Quick question guys. As this school semester is coming to an end very soon, I plan to finally install all the parts that I've been collecting. Regarding fuel system, I wanted to know if I should get the tank to rail kit from STM. Is it necessary? If so, how and why? If not, well I'm sure there is a reason why people run them. I have a lot to learn about the fuel system so as of now I'm trying to acquire as much knowledge as I possibly can before all these parts go on . I figured I should maybe look into this since I need a new fuel filter anyway. Thanks guys!

 

[92AWDHX40]

I would keep it stock, unless you need really hp, and fuel to feed your system other wise save the money, and use the stock set up.

 

[red_devil]

What are your goals?

 

[91'AWDFUN]

not really needed unless you have big injectors and looking for 700Hp

 

[SonySlave]

When I first bought mine, I bought it because it was a complete -8AN kit, super easy to install, and the shell I bought didn't have the stock hard line anymore. Also, I was running E85 at around 580awhp with a Bosch -044 setup in-tank and 1600cc injectors running out of fuel, so I figured, what the hell? Now I'm back to running Q16 fuel as E85 became harder to find, so I really don't NEED the big line anymore, but it was easier that trying to re-install a new hard line.

These cars are more limited by the small size of the return line than the feed. I'd almost say that upgrading the return could be more beneficial that the feed. In the end, you'll have to look at what your goals are for the car and how much power you are looking to make and on what type of fuel. E85 is going to need a much more robust fuel system than gas.

 

[ishnish]

What are your goals?

My short term goals are around 350 whp. Long term would be to aim for 600. Thanks for the response =)

I would keep it stock, unless you need really hp, and fuel to feed your system other wise save the money, and use the stock set up.

Thanks for the response man. I was thinking to keep it stock a well but didn't know if I'd need it depending on what parts I got for my car. I am looking for big power down the line though.

not really needed unless you have big injectors and looking for 700Hp

I have 2150cc injectors waiting to be installed .

When I first bought mine, I bought it because it was a complete -8AN kit, super easy to install, and the shell I bought didn't have the stock hard line anymore. Also, I was running E85 at around 580awhp with a Bosch -044 setup in-tank and 1600cc injectors running out of fuel, so I figured, what the hell? Now I'm back to running Q16 fuel as E85 became harder to find, so I really don't NEED the big line anymore, but it was easier that trying to re-install a new hard line.

These cars are more limited by the small size of the return line than the feed. I'd almost say that upgrading the return could be more beneficial that the feed. In the end, you'll have to look at what your goals are for the car and how much power you are looking to make and on what type of fuel. E85 is going to need a much more robust fuel system than gas.

Thanks for the detailed response bro! Well like I stated before, long term goal is 600hp and I plan to run e85 since I got two stations available here. Would it be a good idea to go with -6 AN or would it be better if I went with -8 AN? That is, if I decide to get it or need it.

 

[crimsondragon]

Why do you need 2150cc injectors for 350 whp?

 

[99gst214]

Why do you need 2150cc injectors for 350 whp?

Because race car? Its not exactly considered overkill with running large injectors. If he is using Link to tune with, he is fine. This way if he plans on running e85 or race fuel at the track he already has the injectors to handle it. Although 2150's are a bit extreme, not completly overkill. I def would have spent my money elsewhere, but o well.

As far as the original question goes, I would upgrade on a "as need basis". Meaning unless you are running out of fuel, you don't need to upgrade yet. A simple 16g will hit your 350 mark on e85. And you don't need the fuel lines and 2150's to do it either. No need to waiste money on "upgrades" that are of no use to you at your current power mark.

 

[ishnish]

Like I said, 350 hp is my short term goal. Meaning by the start of the next semester, I plan to already be at 350. Long term is much more than 350. Also, I got 2150cc injectors because there have been people saying that they have problems getting their injectors to idle (anything between 1150 and 2150). I didn't get 1000's because that's about the minimum to run e85. I got 2150's because I don't want to have to spend money twice on injectors. I want to be done with it.

Thanks for the advice. Like I said, those are short term goals. For my long term goal, would it be a good idea to get?

So basically, the purpose for the tank to rail kit is to deliver fuel faster?

 

[99gst214]

I wouldn't look at it as faster. Just the ability to carry more volume, so when the fuel is needed by the injectors, its there.

 

[ishnish]

I wouldn't look at it as faster. Just the ability to carry more volume, so when the fuel is needed by the injectors, its there.

So for my injectors I would definitely need it then correct?

Could you explain how it operates if you happen to know? I might as well enlighten myself . As in where does the fuel start from and travel to and etc. Also why parts come into play. Sorry if I'm asking a bit much.

 

[SonySlave]

If I was going to build a 600hp-capable E85 fuel setup, it would go as follows:

- Twin Walbro 255HP fuel pumps in-tank
- STM fuel pump re-wire kit (one for each pump)
- 8AN STM fuel line kit
- FIC 2150cc Injectors
- Adjustable FPR
- ECMLink v3

That's really about it. Because you're a 2G, doing dual pumps in-tank can be a huge pain, however, Full Blown has a pretty nice dual pump kit that works well. Kind of pricey, but nice. Wanting 600hp, you're going to have to spend a bunch of money anyway, so who cares? STM's kits are nice because they are complete and easy to install. You could build your own as well if you wanted to. FIC's 2150s are amazing injectors. Super easy to tune, tons of available fuel, and they idle and cruise better than any low-impedence injectors out there. Again, pricey but worth it. Any adjustable AFPR is fine. Aeromotive, Fuelab, etc. Finally, ECMLink v3 for engine management. I shouldn't have to explain this one. Best option currently available for DSMs, outside of AEM EMS or other full standalones that are a huge pain to tune usually. Either get a '95 EPROM ECU socketed or have the guys at ECMLink do an EPROM conversion on your current ECU. Best investment you'll make on your car, without question! Also, big fuel rails are totally unnecessary. don't waste your money.

Do you need all of this just to make 350hp on E85? Absolutely not. But you're building for the future and only spending money once.

 

[ishnish]

If I was going to build a 600hp-capable E85 fuel setup, it would go as follows:

- Twin Walbro 255HP fuel pumps in-tank
- STM fuel pump re-wire kit (one for each pump)
- 8AN STM fuel line kit
- FIC 2150cc Injectors
- Adjustable FPR
- ECMLink v3

That's really about it. Because you're a 2G, doing dual pumps in-tank can be a huge pain, however, Full Blown has a pretty nice dual pump kit that works well. Kind of pricey, but nice. Wanting 600hp, you're going to have to spend a bunch of money anyway, so who cares? STM's kits are nice because they are complete and easy to install. You could build your own as well if you wanted to.

Awesome info SonySlave thank you. Well I have the Supra TT fuel pump as of now I didn't think I'd need two. But I guess down the line I'd have to look into it once I need the upgrade. Got the STM fuel pump rewire kit as well. When you say -8AN STM fuel line kit, are you referring to the tank to rail kit? Got the injectors. Got the fuelab FPR and Link V3 is gonna get ordered next week.

FIC's 2150s are amazing injectors. Super easy to tune, tons of available fuel, and they idle and cruise better than any low-impedence injectors out there. Again, pricey but worth it. Any adjustable AFPR is fine. Aeromotive, Fuelab, etc. Finally, ECMLink v3 for engine management. I shouldn't have to explain this one. Best option currently available for DSMs, outside of AEM EMS or other full standalones that are a huge pain to tune usually. Either get a '95 EPROM ECU socketed or have the guys at ECMLink do an EPROM conversion on your current ECU. Best investment you'll make on your car, without question! Also, big fuel rails are totally unnecessary. don't waste your money.

Do you need all of this just to make 350hp on E85? Absolutely not. But you're building for the future and only spending money once.

That is exactly why I got these injectors! I've heard nothing but good things about them. Oh and as for the EPROM, I have the EPROM ECU that's already soldered and socketed so everything is coming together nicely

 

[ramsack]

I don't see how letting any pump pump with less restriction and letting it work easier is ever a negative.

 

[ishnish]

Good point sir. Nice ride btw.. =P

However, I think the point that some of these guys are trying to get at is, given my short term power goals, that investing into something like the tank to rail kit is not something I desperately need at this point. That's completely understandable. But, since I plan to go bigger in the future (and need a fuel filter for e85 anyway), I think investing in the tank to rail kit might actually be a smart thing to do.

 

[SonySlave]

A single re-wired Walbro 255HP or Supra pump is only going to get you to around 450hp reliably using E85 before you'll need to upgrade. Even with the 2150s. One will be plenty for 350hp for sure. When you decide to go for the big numbers, going with the dual pump setup will be needed. There are some single fuel pumps like the DW300 or Aeromotive 340 that claim "600+hp capable on E85", but I have yet to see one actually do it. Even STM themselves maxed a 340 at only 527hp. The new Walbro 400 pump is promising, but you'll have to wait for the E85 version to be released as E85 has proven over and over to eat and destroy the standard 400. IMO, I'd just do what has been proven over and over again and do the dual Walbro 255HPs.

Also, I am referring to the complete -8 tank to rail kit from STM. The Fuelab filter that comes with the kit is just a housing that uses removable filters and they have gas and ethanol specific filters available.

 

[ishnish]

That defnitely makes sense. I checked out the dual pump and it looks pretty awesome. It'll now just be something I'll build up to when the time is right. I'll take your advice and do what's been proven over and over again as well.

Okay I see. And is there anything I'll have to modify if I get -8AN lines? To compensate I mean.

I might shoot you a PM if I need more advice man. Very nice and informative replies

 

[eviltsi]

For 600 there's no reason for a duel hanger with the 400lph pumps out now if you only want 600hp....if you think theres a possibility of ever wanting more than that, then yeah, do it once. Truthfully I hate my fullblown hanger.... We've made 590ish wheel on multiple cars before the the 400s are done with e85, and we've yet to have a problem with any of them. If you have a pump in the car youll be fine to 450ish as stated, so you can wait for the e85 compatible one if you want the piece if mind. These pumps shit all over everything.

Also I'd recommend the -6 kit, we've made a lot more then 600 with -6 line. -8 is great but it's a whole lot more volume....something a single pump might not keep up with as good as it would with -6. If you decide to go the duel route, then by all means go for it.

Just my opinion.

 

[99gst_racer]

Truthfully I hate my fullblown hanger....

Interesting considering the price. What don't you like about it, Cory?

 

[tkelly27]

http://amsteam.net/files/8/fuelpumpgraph-1.JPG

That's what a fuel pump curve looks like. It seems fine when you think about the 37.5psi at the rail, but then you add 20-30psi of boost, and 5-10psi (or more?) of loss from the pump having to push a high volume of fuel through the small stock line. Then you're all the way up at 75psi at the pump outlet, and the flow drops substantially at that point.

It doesn't seem to me that a -8 line will ever have problems that a -6 line would not. The flow rate for a given hp has to be the same for either line, so the -6 will have to have a higher velocity of flow and a higher pressure drop. It's not like an IC pipe where there is a change in demand, the fuel pump is always putting out maximum flow at a given pressure which is why you need a regulator. As mentioned, no need to go with the -8 when the -6 will handle a lot more than people will need. If you think you might need it, it's easier not to buy twice though.

Aside from getting rid of the stock filter, restrictive banjo fitting, and small line, you can re-purpose the old feed line as a more than large enough return line, giving you a really awesome fuel system.

 

[eviltsi]

Interesting considering the price. What don't you like about it, Cory?

The biggest problem that i have with it is the pumps can't sit low enough. I need damn near 5 gallons of fuel in the tank before both pumps are submerged enough to just pick up....i go racing with a full tank, so much for weight reduction.

Its also a giant heavy unit that's i nightmare to work on. The fuel level sender never seems to work right. And on top of it, the -6 fitting on it are so damn tight if i ever wanted to switch to a -8 I dont think they'd ever come off.

Does it work, yes.
Is it ideal, HELL NO!

I'd gladly trade what I have for a stock hanger with a 400 pump....That's more than enough for what the stock motor will handle.

 

[coop795]

Only do what looks stock (or can hide) for the simple fact that you live in California. It you get pulled over and they ask you to pop the hood they can impound it or send you to the ref. The game is to get it to look stock and make it as fast a you want for the street. 600 WHP will require you to have a complete stock motor to drop in for smog.

 

[ramsack]

You could always just bend up a larger-diameter-than-stock hard line, flare the ends, and attach them to AN bulkheads. Though, I really don't see why any self-respecting mechanic would think that fuel line made of stainless-covered hose and AN fittings would ever affect emissions. I'd think if you found someone to inspect it who had some common sense, it would be OK. Maybe I'm totally off base and they (authorities and mechanics) have no common sense in California

 

[ishnish]

http://amsteam.net/files/8/fuelpumpgraph-1.JPG

That's what a fuel pump curve looks like. It seems fine when you think about the 37.5psi at the rail, but then you add 20-30psi of boost, and 5-10psi (or more?) of loss from the pump having to push a high volume of fuel through the small stock line. Then you're all the way up at 75psi at the pump outlet, and the flow drops substantially at that point.

It doesn't seem to me that a -8 line will ever have problems that a -6 line would not. The flow rate for a given hp has to be the same for either line, so the -6 will have to have a higher velocity of flow and a higher pressure drop. It's not like an IC pipe where there is a change in demand, the fuel pump is always putting out maximum flow at a given pressure which is why you need a regulator. As mentioned, no need to go with the -8 when the -6 will handle a lot more than people will need. If you think you might need it, it's easier not to buy twice though.

Well I'm not sure if I will need the -8 AN lines or not. I mean if there aren't any cons to it, I might as well get them since it'll be the same price. When would I actually need -8 AN lines though?

Aside from getting rid of the stock filter, restrictive banjo fitting, and small line, you can re-purpose the old feed line as a more than large enough return line, giving you a really awesome fuel system.

Sorry could you rephrase this? Didn't understand what you meant.

The biggest problem that i have with it is the pumps can't sit low enough. I need damn near 5 gallons of fuel in the tank before both pumps are submerged enough to just pick up....i go racing with a full tank, so much for weight reduction.

Its also a giant heavy unit that's i nightmare to work on. The fuel level sender never seems to work right. And on top of it, the -6 fitting on it are so damn tight if i ever wanted to switch to a -8 I dont think they'd ever come off.

Does it work, yes.
Is it ideal, HELL NO!

I'd gladly trade what I have for a stock hanger with a 400 pump....That's more than enough for what the stock motor will handle.

This has definitely been an eye opener.. I'm happy to see other people's opinions on the dual pump product. Do you ever see yourself upgrading to -8 eviltsi? Would this at all affect fuel economy if I were to go with -8 as opposed to -6?

 

[99gst_racer]

The biggest problem that i have with it is the pumps can't sit low enough. I need damn near 5 gallons of fuel in the tank before both pumps are submerged enough to just pick up....i go racing with a full tank, so much for weight reduction.

Its also a giant heavy unit that's i nightmare to work on. The fuel level sender never seems to work right. And on top of it, the -6 fitting on it are so damn tight if i ever wanted to switch to a -8 I dont think they'd ever come off.

Does it work, yes.
Is it ideal, HELL NO!

I'd gladly trade what I have for a stock hanger with a 400 pump....That's more than enough for what the stock motor will handle.

Thanks for the reply. I never liked that they used pipe thread ports on it. ORB ports would have been much nicer. Truthfully, I'm not a fan of twin intank pumps on a 2G. That's just too much stuff to cram into a small space. I'd prefer an in-tank feeding an inline pump.