Balance Shaft Removal with engine still in car?

[4gfun]

I'd like to eliminate the balance shaft so that there is one left thing to worry about.

I have been searching around here a bit and have found varying responses with many of them indicating that it is just too hard to do with the engine in the vehicle.

At this point, the cylinder head is off and so is the timing belt. The thing is, I have never done anything like this and don't want to get myself into a project that I can't handle.

I mean I have pulled the head on these vehicles and done a clutch job before.

Is this much harder?

The last post here (post 16) shows some promise but it is like Greek to me:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...ing-balance-shaft-elimination-engine-car.html

Thoughts?

Thanks

 

[4gfun]

Seems like there is no way out of that one!

You'll be glad once its done

 

[SonySlave]

Cdc1221 gave you the easiest and most cost effective way of doing the elimination. Trying to press bearings into the block to block the oil galley holes while the block is in the car is ridiculous and unnecessary. You literally only need to buy one thing to do the whole job, the OEM stub shaft. If you pull the engine in the future then finish the whole job when everything is out of the car.

Since you're in there pulling the oil pan and front case here is a list of things you SHOULD buy and replace in the process (with Mitsu part numbers):

- Timing belt (Evo 9 kevlar - 1145A038)
- Water pump w/ gasket and o-ring (MD972052)
- OEM stub shaft (MD098626)
- Crank sprocket spacer (MD128107)
- Castle plug o-ring (MD041021)
- Front case gasket (MD149393)
- Oil filter housing gasket (MD149370)
- Oil pick-up tube gasket (MD183240)
- Front crankshaft main seal (MD343563)
- Balance shaft main seal (MD343565)
- Oil pump main seal (MD365697)
- Cam seals x2 (MD372536)
- Oil pan turbo oil drain gasket x2 (MR258477)

Do it all at once to save yourself potential trouble in the future!

 

[4gfun]

No no, actually I am not in there pulling the oil pan. I was referring to having done that in the past on my GVR4.

Thanks for all of the part numbers.

Cdc1221 gave you the easiest and most cost effective way of doing the elimination. Trying to press bearings into the block to block the oil galley holes while the block is in the car is ridiculous and unnecessary. You literally only need to buy one thing to do the whole job, the OEM stub shaft. However, since you're in there pulling the oil pan and front case here is a list of things you SHOULD buy and replace in the process (with Mitsu part numbers):

- Timing belt (Evo 9 kevlar - 1145A038)
- Water pump w/ gasket and o-ring (MD972052)
- OEM stub shaft (MD098626)
- Crank sprocket spacer (MD128107)
- Castle plug o-ring (MD041021)
- Front case gasket (MD149393)
- Oil filter housing gasket (MD149370)
- Oil pick-up tube gasket (MD183240)
- Front crankshaft main seal (MD343563)
- Balance shaft main seal (MD343565)
- Oil pump main seal (MD365697)
- Cam seals x2 (MD372536)
- Oil pan turbo oil drain gasket x2 (MR258477)

Do it all at once to save yourself potential trouble in the future!

 

[SonySlave]

No no, actually I am not in there pulling the oil pan. I was referring to having done that in the past on my GVR4.

Thanks for all of the part numbers.

Well you have to pull the oil pan in order to pull the front case/oil pump off to do the balance shaft elimination.

 

[4gfun]

Even if doing it the "Cdc1221" way? Sorry to be a newb at this...just asking.

Thanks

Well you have to pull the oil pan in order to pull the front case/oil pump off to do the balance shaft elimination.

 

[IrishBeatdown]

I did it with the engine in the car in the dirt outside my house. What a whore of a job that was. Pulling the downpipe/transfer case/oil pan wasn't bad, but trying to push in the rear balance shaft bearing was ridiculous. You can't get your fingers in there, at least i cant. I was using a screwdriver to position the bearing as I simultaneously tried to push it in, and it was a holy nightmare. Likely took me an hour to get the rear in the way I wanted. Had to quit and come back later out of pure frustration. Would not do the front shaft elimination again or recommend with the engine on car.

Even if doing it the "Cdc1221" way? Sorry to be a newb at this...just asking.

Thanks

I don't know what the cdc1221 way is but you can eliminate just the rear balance shaft and stubby shaft the pump gear and just leave in the front shaft.

 

[4gfun]

Without pulling the oil pan correct?

I did it with the engine in the car in the dirt outside my house. What a whore of a job that was. Pulling the downpipe/transfer case/oil pan wasn't bad, but trying to push in the rear balance shaft bearing was ridiculous. You can't get your fingers in there, at least i cant. I was using a screwdriver to position the bearing as I simultaneously tried to push it in, and it was a holy nightmare. Likely took me an hour to get the rear in the way I wanted. Had to quit and come back later out of pure frustration. Would not do the front shaft elimination again or recommend with the engine on car.


I don't know what the cdc1221 way is but you can eliminate just the rear balance shaft and stubby shaft the pump gear and just leave in the front shaft.

 

[SonySlave]

Even if doing it the "Cdc1221" way? Sorry to be a newb at this...just asking.

Thanks

Yeah, even his/my way. The reason being is that the rear balance shaft is attached to the oil pump gears directly and the only way to remove it is by removing the front case/oil pump, which requires the oil pan to come off. It's really not terribly hard, just time consuming and annoying. But then you never have to worry about balance shaft belt or bearing failure and it makes timing belt jobs 5x quicker as you no longer have to line up the oil pump sprocket (only cam gears and crank).

Step by step:

Remove timing belt
Remove cam gears
Replace cam seals
Install cam gears
Remove balance shaft belt (cutting it off is fine since you aren't replacing it)
Drain coolant
Remove water pump
Remove downpipe
Remove transfer case
Remove turbo oil return line
Remove oil filter housing
Remove oil pan
Remove oil pick up tube
Remove front balance shaft sprocket and spacer (leave shaft in engine)
Remove rear balance shaft sprocket
Remove balance shaft tensioner pulley
Remove crank bolt, sprockets, and timing plate
Remove front case/oil pump with rear balance shaft attached
Remove castle plug from front case and break loose bolt holding balance shaft
Pull rear balance shaft from front case
Replace balance shaft with stub shaft (lube shaft first) and bolt to front case
Replace castle plug o-ring and re-install castle plug
Replace crank seal, front balance shaft seal, and oil pump seal
Bolt oil pump sprocket back on
Clean old gasket material off block and front case surfaces (including water pump area)
Set new front case gasket on block and bolt front case back on the block
Reach into the engine and push front balance shaft back into place (if it moved out of place)
Install spacer and front balance shaft sprocket
Install balance shaft tensioner pulley (only used as a spacer now)
Install crank sprocket spacer, timing plate, crank sprocket, and crank bolt (crank sprocket spacer replaces the balance shaft sprocket on the crank)
Install oil pickup tube and new gasket
Install oil pan
Install oil filter housing using new gasket
Install turbo oil drain tube using new gasket
Install water pump using new gasket and o-ring
Install timing belt (only cam gear and crank marks matter, oil pump gear mark no longer matters)
Install transfer case
Install downpipe

That's pretty much it. A couple things could be done out of order but this is the way I have done it and still do it if necessary. Good luck!

 

[4gfun]

Thanks....reading through all of it.

 

[4gfun]

So this is required to do it the easier of the 2 ways? Just verifying. I am not horribly ticked off at having to pull the pan and t-case. The head gasket was blown, so I guess I can do a little cleanup down there as well!

Thanks!

Yeah, even his/my way. The reason being is that the rear balance shaft is attached to the oil pump gears directly and the only way to remove it is by removing the front case/oil pump, which requires the oil pan to come off. It's really not terribly hard, just time consuming and annoying. But then you never have to worry about balance shaft belt or bearing failure and it makes timing belt jobs 5x quicker as you no longer have to line up the oil pump sprocket (only cam gears and crank).

Step by step:

Remove timing belt
Remove cam gears
Replace cam seals
Install cam gears
Remove balance shaft belt (cutting it off is fine since you aren't replacing it)
Drain coolant
Remove water pump
Remove downpipe
Remove transfer case
Remove turbo oil return line
Remove oil filter housing
Remove oil pan
Remove oil pick up tube
Remove front balance shaft sprocket and spacer (leave shaft in engine)
Remove rear balance shaft sprocket
Remove balance shaft tensioner pulley
Remove crank bolt, sprockets, and timing plate
Remove front case/oil pump with rear balance shaft attached
Remove castle plug from front case and break loose bolt holding balance shaft
Pull rear balance shaft from front case
Replace balance shaft with stub shaft (lube shaft first) and bolt to front case
Replace castle plug o-ring and re-install castle plug
Replace crank seal, front balance shaft seal, and oil pump seal
Bolt oil pump sprocket back on
Clean old gasket material off block and front case surfaces (including water pump area)
Set new front case gasket on block and bolt front case back on the block
Reach into the engine and push front balance shaft back into place (if it moved out of place)
Install spacer and front balance shaft sprocket
Install balance shaft tensioner pulley (only used as a spacer now)
Install crank sprocket spacer, timing plate, crank sprocket, and crank bolt (crank sprocket spacer replaces the balance shaft sprocket on the crank)
Install oil pickup tube and new gasket
Install oil pan
Install oil filter housing using new gasket
Install turbo oil drain tube using new gasket
Install water pump using new gasket and o-ring
Install timing belt (only cam gear and crank marks matter, oil pump gear mark no longer matters)
Install transfer case
Install downpipe

That's pretty much it. A couple things could be done out of order but this is the way I have done it and still do it if necessary. Good luck!

 

[IrishBeatdown]

So this is required to do it the easier of the 2 ways? Just verifying. I am not horribly ticked off at having to pull the pan and t-case. The head gasket was blown, so I guess I can do a little cleanup down there as well!

Thanks!

Yeah. Even the easier of the two ways still involves pulling everything on the freaking car. Then again, you just might get ambitious and do it all. I was hell bent on doing it even rolling around in the dirt in my yard. I thought as long as I have the front case pulled, none of the balance shafts were going to stay in my car in one piece. Which was pretty accurate because I was minutes away from taking a saw to the front balance shaft when I couldn't get the engine low enough to get the shaft out. It takes some serious elbow grease, even taking off the front crossmember and 2 motor mounts, it didn't come out cleanly. I finally got it out by having my roommate sit on the shortblock. Counterweight FTW.

 

[SonySlave]

So this is required to do it the easier of the 2 ways? Just verifying. I am not horribly ticked off at having to pull the pan and t-case. The head gasket was blown, so I guess I can do a little cleanup down there as well!

Thanks!

Yep, this is the easiest of the two ways. No bearing installs and leaves the front balance shaft in place. Seems like a lot but it's really just a lot of steps. Most of the work isn't terribly difficult.

 

[4gfun]

Wow dude! I am convinced to handle it the other way...at least for now.

Thanks

Yeah. Even the easier of the two ways still involves pulling everything on the freaking car. Then again, you just might get ambitious and do it all. I was hell bent on doing it even rolling around in the dirt in my yard. I thought as long as I have the front case pulled, none of the balance shafts were going to stay in my car in one piece. Which was pretty accurate because I was minutes away from taking a saw to the front balance shaft when I couldn't get the engine low enough to get the shaft out. It takes some serious elbow grease, even taking off the front crossmember and 2 motor mounts, it didn't come out cleanly. I finally got it out by having my roommate sit on the shortblock. Counterweight FTW.

 

[4gfun]

Thanks for laying it out...thanks for your patience as well....DMV for life.

Yep, this is the easiest of the two ways. No bearing installs and leaves the front balance shaft in place. Seems like a lot but it's really just a lot of steps. Most of the work isn't terribly difficult.

 

[SmoochDarling]

I would argue keeping the Balance Shafts would improve reliability. They do serve a purpose. Replace the belt and dont worry about them.

 

[4gfun]

I'd like to hear your argument then. You wouldn't be the first.

I just found this...I am sure that this is a timeless debate though.

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/keep-your-balance-shafts

I would argue keeping the Balance Shafts would improve reliability. They do serve a purpose. Replace the belt and dont worry about them.

 

[4gfun]

Ok, finally getting around to this, with 6 other cars (including a broken GVR4) stuff is going to happen.

I am going by these instructions posted by SonySlave above.

I have added some numbers to the above steps so you all can see where I get hung up.

Right now I am stuck at steps 14 and 15. Is the red circled area the front balance shaft sprocket? Also, where is the rear balance shaft sprocket?

Thanks

1 Remove timing belt
2 Remove cam gears
3 Replace cam seals
4 Install cam gears
5 Remove balance shaft belt (cutting it off is fine since you aren't replacing it)
6 Drain coolant
7 Remove water pump
8 Remove downpipe
9 Remove transfer case
10 Remove turbo oil return line
11 Remove oil filter housing
12 Remove oil pan
13 Remove oil pick up tube
14 Remove front balance shaft sprocket and spacer (leave shaft in engine)
15 Remove rear balance shaft sprocket
16 Remove balance shaft tensioner pulley
17 Remove crank bolt, sprockets, and timing plate
18 Remove front case/oil pump with rear balance shaft attached
19 Remove castle plug from front case and break loose bolt holding balance shaft
20 Pull rear balance shaft from front case
21 Replace balance shaft with stub shaft (lube shaft first) and bolt to front case
22 Replace castle plug o-ring and re-install castle plug
23 Replace crank seal, front balance shaft seal, and oil pump seal
24 Bolt oil pump sprocket back on
25 Clean old gasket material off block and front case surfaces (including water pump area)
26 Set new front case gasket on block and bolt front case back on the block
27 Reach into the engine and push front balance shaft back into place (if it moved out of place)
28 Install spacer and front balance shaft sprocket with beveled side towards engine.
29 Install balance shaft tensioner pulley (only used as a spacer now) Push up at 12-1 o'clock to get the tensioner up as high as it will go or it will rub the oil pump housing. Use blue Loctite and tighten to 16 ft. lbs.
30 Install crank sprocket spacer, timing plate, crank sprocket, and crank bolt (crank sprocket spacer replaces the balance shaft sprocket on the crank) Order of operations, balance shaft sprocket with lip facing engine, timing plate, then crank sprocket with pin away from engine. The wear on these items may help you figure it out....or "bowls of all gears and sprockets go inwards. Also if you are using the spacer, dot probably goes to outside although both sides of spacer are the same...you won't even see it so probably not important. If the timing plate is bent, lineman pliers worked well to straighten it out...straighten towards the engine if anything. Additionally, there is a washer that fits inside of the crank sprocket which the crank bolt rests on. It is often stuck inside. If it is, don't worry about it...just leave it alone.
31 Install oil pickup tube and new gasket
32 Install oil pan (when cleaning up, be careful not to damage front case gasket as it can get in the way). Use Permatex the right stuff only on the oil pan side and in the groove. Make sure block and oil pan surfaces are extremely clean. Spread the RTV outwards enough where it will squish but not too thick. Spread all the way as to cover all surfaces of pan. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/416467-2g-oil-pan-bead.html Make sure that you identify and correctly place the 2 shorter bolts or they will rub the timing belt see: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/441874-oil-pan-short-bolts.html (The answer is pic #2)
33 Install oil filter housing using new gasket...you can do this right after you install the case, but doing it now probably helps making oil pan gasket cleanup a bit easier.
34 Install turbo oil drain tube using new gasket
35 Install water pump using new gasket and o-ring. Use a Brass wire Brush on the water pipe, 60 grit sand paper, and brake clean as and where needed. Put the O-ring around the water pipe but lubricate it first with grease. (Others say coolant but grease seems to work for me). Push the Water pump on the pipe. I removed the large brackets around the pipe to see what was blocking the water pump from sliding in...turns out that was probably not needed now that I understand it was the pump not fitting onto the pipe since it was not lubed. Also, it seems like the length of the middle lower bolt is not long enough and I ended up swapping it out with the top right bolt IIRC. I measured the 22mm and 28mm lengths that were supposed to go to their respective locations but things still didn't work out. Maybe the Gates/Hyundai Water pump is a little thicker??
36 Install timing belt (only cam gear and crank marks matter, oil pump gear mark no longer matters)
37 Install transfer case
38 Install downpipe

[

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[4gfun]

Answer:

Yes, this is the front balance shaft sprocket and spacer.

 

[4gfun]

This is the rear balance shaft (area at least). Circled in red. Will there be a sprocket there? Guess I'll find out.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[4gfun]

Please keep an eye on this thread and lend a hand when you can...VFAQ is overkill for this partial job and I have severe ADD.

Thanks

 

[4gfun]

I am currently stuck at step 15. I cannot find a rear balance shaft sprocket. I did a "find" within the VFAQ and do not see "rear" listed for the rear sprocket anywhere.

Where is it?

 

[fallenauthority]

The rear balance shaft sprocket is the oil pump sprocket. The rear balance shaft is attached to the oil pump gear.

 

[4gfun]

The rear balance shaft sprocket is the oil pump sprocket. The rear balance shaft is attached to the oil pump gear.

Well thank you very much. Note on step 15 for myself and all. I ended up needing large vice grips, deep creep, and propane torch to remove the nut holding it. Did not require map gas like my GVR4 did when removing flywheel bolts.

 

[4gfun]

Note on step 18 for myself and all. You need to remove the bottom alternator bolt to remove the oil pump case. If you have pulled the head for some other reason in the process, the alternator will come right out. Great time to replace it if you need to.

 

[4gfun]

Step 19, remove castle plug. I searched around and the results generally say that I should be able to tap the castle plug gently and turn it. Well I have hit it with a chisel and a hammer, torched it with propane and lubed it with PB Blaster. Is this part threaded?

Any ideas on how to get it out? Got it out, had to use map gas and chisel.

Thanks

...but in the process I might have wrecked the Case

Below is a pic. Do I need a new case? The pic is good but the damage is still hard to see. There is some at 7 o'clock and some at 2 o'clock. None is at the center of where the o-ring goes. It is all on the outside. Why isn't the castle plug and it's threads sufficient to hold the flow of oil? Could I just JB Weld everything shut? How does the sealing work?

Please don't be the creepy bastard pming me trying to sell me a new case. I'd just like some answers before I put up a wanted ad.

Thanks

You must be logged in to view this image or video.