Another ACT PP failure...

[Dyesuperman]

Did a couple pulls last night while it was raining (yes, sliding around, it is fun at times ). Anyhow, I thought I heard a rattling noise while turning to meet up with some locals after doing said pulls. Didn't think much of it...but then I heard it again. And I also felt that my clutch pedal had lost some pressure. Got to Pineapple Whip and look under my car to see if anything was loose or dragging, nothing was. Went to leave after hanging out for a couple hours and I heard the clanking/rattling again...at this point I am thinking broken center diff, something wrong with the trans, etc. Limped it home and jacked it up to see if an axle had broken or anything like that...nothing.

So, I woke up this morning and pulled back the clutch fork boot...and out popped this.

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And since I am not the original owner of the pressure plate, it is a no go on the warranty. I shall be seeing what kind of deal they can give me on a new one or switching to a southbend since their 2200# pp is much more 7bolt friendly and will hold all of the torque I will have. Not sure if the act 2100# can do the same with the same disk (Southbend full face kevlar). More pictures to come of the failure

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Sorry to hear that Caleb.

 

[92AWDHX40]

I guess its hit or miss never had a problem with mine, but i learned things will break new or not, depends on a lot of things i would call act they have good service, at least in my case.

 

[JackM]

We have installed thousands of ACT units and never seen a failure like that. It is very rare and from my personal experience, I would stick with ACT and not go to the other manufacturer as we have had a few nightmares from them.

I believe that the failure you have could be caused by a pressure plate which is not torqued to the flywheel correctly, or is not flush. That finger was probably under enormous stress and eventually failed. I don't believe it is ACTs fault and believe it's an installation issue. ACT seems to help their customers with it anyway, though.

Just get another ACT and be done with it. More than likely you will never have that problem again, unless something else is chewing it up, which means any clutch you install will fail eventually.

 

[92AWDHX40]

I love the products i stand by them the only aftermarket clutch or flywheel i would run.

 

[Dyesuperman]

We have installed thousands of ACT units and never seen a failure like that. It is very rare and from my personal experience, I would stick with ACT and not go to the other manufacturer as we have had a few nightmares from them.

I believe that the failure you have could be caused by a pressure plate which is not torqued to the flywheel correctly, or is not flush. That finger was probably under enormous stress and eventually failed. I don't believe it is ACTs fault and believe it's an installation issue. ACT seems to help their customers with it anyway, though.

Just get another ACT and be done with it. More than likely you will never have that problem again, unless something else is chewing it up, which means any clutch you install will fail eventually.

Yeah I will know more after I get the trans off and see if the finger hit the disk or anything. The bolts were torqued in order and to spec using loctite. The pressure plate surface was warped when I took it off in March, so I guess this is just the time to replace it. Would you mind pm'ing me with what the "other" manufacturer has done to give you nightmares?

 

[99gst_racer]

It could also be caused by too much fork throw. EI: longer slave pushrod, overly shimmed pivot ball, etc...

How much torque are you making, Caleb?

 

[Artago]

It could also be caused by too much fork throw. EI: longer slave pushrod, overly shimmed pivot ball, etc...

That's what happened to my ACT 2600. Too much throw caused by a pivot ball shim that the previous owner put in (and I didn't notice).

Caused this: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drivetrain-tech/351015-act-failed-help-diagnose-warranty-pics.html

Note the wear on the disc springs. The PP fingers made contact. Also the outside of the PP made contact with the fork. I could feel the vibrations in the clutch pedal when it was fully pressed in. Stupid me for ignoring it. It also wore out my main bearings and I had to rebuild the bottom end.

I removed the shim and got a free ACT2100 PP from ACT. A little while later the PP failed on me.

See here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drivetrain-tech/380441-clutch-soft-suddenly.html

The diaphragm on the PP cracked (not visible in the photos)

I then installed a SBC clutch from twicks69 (TMZ performance)

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drivetrain-tech/381326-south-bend-clutch-info-thread.html

So far so good.

Tom

 

[Archer Fabrications]

the pressure plate is supposed to be 14ftlb correct? and is it recommended to use blue loctite? i just torqued my 2600 down and didnt use any thread locker.

 

[Artago]

the pressure plate is supposed to be 14ftlb correct?

14-16 ftlbs. I did 16.

and is it recommended to use blue loctite? i just torqued my 2600 down and didnt use any thread locker.

Rolling the dice on that one.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

14-16 ftlbs. I did 16.



Rolling the dice on that one.

I'm still waiting for my shep trans which will come tomorrow, I was asking if its recommended.. I'm guessing your rolling the dice comment was assuming i didn't use it and bolted up the trans, i'll be re-torquing them to 16ft lbs and using blue loctite

 

[Artago]

I'm still waiting for my shep trans which will come tomorrow, I was asking if its recommended.. I'm guessing your rolling the dice comment was assuming i didn't use it and bolted up the trans, i'll be re-torquing them to 16ft lbs and using blue loctite

Right right, my mistake. Yeah, loctite those bolts.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Right right, my mistake. Yeah, loctite those bolts.

thank you very much quick and helpful! came to the right place.

 

[Dyesuperman]

It could also be caused by too much fork throw. EI: longer slave pushrod, overly shimmed pivot ball, etc...

How much torque are you making, Caleb?

Pivot ball does have one shim on it but there is no evidence (nor noise) that the fork was touching the pp or the fingers touching the spring. The pressure plate surface was warped when I pulled the motor in March, but I put it back in because I didn't have the money to buy a new one, I just reused everything (disk, pp, flywheel) so it was the same as it was. There are hot spots on the flywheel and pp, just like it was when I pulled it before. The feramic 6 puck southbend disk really eats them up it seems.

Not sure on torque numbers. 26psi from a 7blade hx35 and runs 11.89@120 in the quarter. whp should be around 400 but no idea on torque numbers

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(The mark on there is from something else, there are no marks on the fork from rubbing against anything)

PP Surface

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Disk

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Carnage in bell housing

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[JackM]

That clutch looks pretty worn out. Are those witness marks on the rivets in the 6th picture? If so, that clutch was pissed for awhile.

I don't know why people always blame the clutch throw issues on shimming the pivot ball. The reason the fingers would hit the disk is due to:

1) Flywheel step is too short.
2) Disk is too thick and maybe not the original the pressure plate was designed for.
3) Aftermarket pressure plates will sometimes have a little more meat on the surface so more material would have to be taken off the flywheel for more step.

If people would assemble their clutch on the bench and look at the position of the fingers before installing in the vehicle, a lot of these problems could be avoided. If the pressure plate fingers point in-ward toward the disk when all is bolted together, then the step is too tight. They need to point away just slightly. Blindly installing a shim or following the factory step height for a high performance clutch will not work and will cause premature clutch failure, clutch drag, and notchy shifting.

Not sure why the finger broke in this case, but that clutch was done a long time ago. It's a shame a good clutch gets a bad name due to failure caused by complete wear.

I would say that the clutch is just very old. If you install a new one, and are careful with the position of all parts, I can't imagine you will have another issue until it is also worn out.

I remember when people used to get 10k miles and 1 year out of a race clutch and were totally happy with that. Now people want these things to last the life of the car and that's just not going to happen. Things wear out and need to be replaced, especially in race applications.

Good luck! Hope you buy another ACT.

Jack

 

[Dyesuperman]

That clutch looks pretty worn out. Are those witness marks on the rivets in the 6th picture? If so, that clutch was pissed for awhile.

I don't know why people always blame the clutch throw issues on shimming the pivot ball. The reason the fingers would hit the disk is due to:

1) Flywheel step is too short.
2) Disk is too thick and maybe not the original the pressure plate was designed for.
3) Aftermarket pressure plates will sometimes have a little more meat on the surface so more material would have to be taken off the flywheel for more step.

If people would assemble their clutch on the bench and look at the position of the fingers before installing in the vehicle, a lot of these problems could be avoided. If the pressure plate fingers point in-ward toward the disk when all is bolted together, then the step is too tight. They need to point away just slightly. Blindly installing a shim or following the factory step height for a high performance clutch will not work and will cause premature clutch failure, clutch drag, and notchy shifting.

Not sure why the finger broke in this case, but that clutch was done a long time ago. It's a shame a good clutch gets a bad name due to failure caused by complete wear.

I would say that the clutch is just very old. If you install a new one, and are careful with the position of all parts, I can't imagine you will have another issue until it is also worn out.

I remember when people used to get 10k miles and 1 year out of a race clutch and were totally happy with that. Now people want these things to last the life of the car and that's just not going to happen. Things wear out and need to be replaced, especially in race applications.

Good luck! Hope you buy another ACT.

Jack

What do you mean by witness marks? So you would say the pressure plate was just worn out and that caused the finger to break? I bought the setup used but I was under the impression it didn't have many miles on it. I know the disk has around 10-12k on it, not sure on the pp though. Thanks for the tip on bolting them together beforehand, I will do that and make sure it looks ok before putting it all back together

 

[JackM]

What do you mean by witness marks? So you would say the pressure plate was just worn out and that caused the finger to break? I bought the setup used but I was under the impression it didn't have many miles on it. I know the disk has around 10-12k on it, not sure on the pp though. Thanks for the tip on bolting them together beforehand, I will do that and make sure it looks ok before putting it all back together

If you take a pic of the fingers, after you have it bolted together, and post it here I should be able to tell if things are close.

What I meant by witness marks is are there marks on the rivets from possibly making contact with the pressure plate? If the material on the pads wore down and the rivets were touching, the disk was totally done anyway.

 

[WES_393]

That is completely typical failure of an ACT pressure plate. Yes that clutch is worn out, but there is no excuse for a PP shredding itself to pieces, regardless of mileage. Go South Bend or get a scatter shield with a new ACT.

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

Mine broke just like yours... 4 fingers broke. It was my fault!! A bolt from the trans spacer plate had come out and I'm sure that's what broke the fingers. My bell housing looked exactly like yours. Not saying that's what happpened to yours but I have a feeling that not everybody faces up to their mistakes.

 

[Lou98GSX]

when i installed my act 2600 pressure plate i had to file the holes for the dowel pins just a little to get the pressure plate to bolt up.

 

[Dyesuperman]

Well I ordered a South Bend pressure plate to be easier on my thrust bearings and still hold the power I want. The motor has 120k+ on it so if it was going to crankwalk it would have, but I figure it won't hurt to be easier on it with the 2200# pp instead of another ACT 2600#. I am having trouble determining what my flywheel is though...from certain pictures it seems to be an ACT streetlite flywheel, but it has no markings or numbers on it to identify it. I am needing to know if it is safe to resurface and throw back on. I have only resurfaced it once, and I believe it may have been resurfaced once before by the previous owner, so this would be its third time possibly? Tell me what ya think

Thanks,

Caleb

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[JackM]

If it has been resurfaced 3 times, I would get a new one. You are getting to the point where the flywheel is going to be very thin and can explode. There is not much material in them to begin with.

I would also look for cracks. If you see cracks at any of the edges, then it needs to be tossed.