2G Alignment Issues

[Michael Wucher]

Hello all, I went in for an alignment today and I thought everything was going smoothly until the technician came back and grabbed me. He took me to the car and explained he could not proceed with alignment. He stated that the Driver side wheel was set back further than passenger side. When I got home, I took a tape measure and measured from center of wheel caps and got these measurements.

Driver Side: 99.5"
Passenger Side: 100.5"

Any input on what I should do? I reached out to the guy who sold me the car back in November and he told me that the car has never been in an accident.

 

[luv2rallye]

Obviously a previous owner would never admit to any accident or going hard into a ditch (may even have been from some other owner before him). Raise the front of car and look under the LF wheel at the lower suspension arms (straight lateral lower arm and curved compression lower arm) to see if bent damage. Also those arms body attachment points for damage. Also check those arms bushings and ball joints for damage/play. Wriggle those arms as hard as you can to test (even use a crowbar). Or look for anything that a crash or going hard into a ditch would bend. You can also measure distances from a fixed point further back under rocker panel to the arms attachment points (on both arm ends) and compare to those on the RF side. I suspect you'll see something off. You may have to take the car to a frame straightening shop.

 

[waltah]

Well, that's a nasty problem. I expect you know the issues: Such a car is unlikely to track properly (rear wheels exactly follow the front ones) and there could be both handling problems and issues with wear on tires and other parts. Obviously these aren't huge -- you've have noticed if they were -- but anything measurable ought to be figured out.

The prior owner may be right about 'no accident': Damage to the suspension of any wheel caused by a bad pothole could do this. These are sports car suspensions -- not pickup truck ones. The 2g Eclipse suspension is about as good anything in the business but it's a racehorse, not a plowhorse.

Actually the 'Eclipse' name is said to come from a racehorse -- 19th century I think.

The specification wheelbase of a 2g car is 98.8" so both your measurements may be slightly off but probably not enough to change the conclusion: Your left front wheel is back a bit from where it should be. A careful eyeball of both sides of the front should confirm that the left front wheel is a bit farther back in the fender opening than the right one. 'Eyeball center' is the right place though and since the left is closer to the spec than the right, the problem could be on the right side.

Assuming you're able to figure out which wheel is in the wrong place I'd get it up on ramps and inspect and then measure the various parts most likely to be wrong.

The front-to-rear position of the front wheels is determined mainly by three parts: (1) the subframe running forward from the body to which everything is fastened -- not likely the only or main problem, (2) the lateral lower arm -- this sticks straight out and is very stiff, it's the part the shock absorber and spring fasten to, and (3) the compression lower arm, a curved piece that connects the knuckle (where the wheel bearing is) to the subframe behind the lateral lower arm.

These three parts form a triangle: If the wheel end of that triangle is in the wrong place, one side of the triangle is wrong and if you can't see anything obvious just by comparing the left and right front wheels, then I'd carefully measure the compression lower arms and inspect the subframe where they are attached.

If an hour's study of the situation doesn't show anything then a similar process can be applied at the rear. But an inch on the wheelbase is enough that you should be able to figure out what part is guilty.

The two lower arms are straightforward driveway repair jobs -- maybe half a day the first time if you're used to car suspension work and have the tools. But even if you're going to pay someone to fix it up, doing the diagnosis yourself is useful so you'll know that the recommended fix will actually fix what's broken.

Generally suspension parts should be replaced on both sides at the same time and depending on the mileage on your car you may want to replace more than just the damaged parts of the assembly -- the ball joints at the outer ends of all the arms wear out at around 100k miles and the usual fix is to replace the arm assembly including the ball joint. Counting parts and labor both sides replacing it all including shocks I'd guess the $1000 ballpark. But -- if the joints and shocks are good and only one part is damaged then you could replace just that one for a fraction the price.

Of course you may get under there and see that something is truly bashed -- shoved into or pulled out of the subframe or something like that. Or that there's damage in more than one place and the chassis is involved. For that you would want a collision repair guy and they can generally fix anything you could possibly drive to the shop so it's good as new. For a price, of course.

A pothole big enough to bend suspension or chassis parts might well destroy the tire and/or wheel -- any mismatch could be a clue.

Good luck with it!

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Is it still on the oem compression arms? This will cause a set back difference also since they did that to counter act the road curve. Have a check and change them to new age ones as they ditched that idea for equal ones now, that will help you start off.

Alsl check all bushes and subframe mounts incase one has shifted

 

[Michael Wucher]

Well, that's a nasty problem. I expect you know the issues: Such a car is unlikely to track properly (rear wheels exactly follow the front ones) and there could be both handling problems and issues with wear on tires and other parts. Obviously these aren't huge -- you've have noticed if they were -- but anything measurable ought to be figured out.

The prior owner may be right about 'no accident': Damage to the suspension of any wheel caused by a bad pothole could do this. These are sports car suspensions -- not pickup truck ones. The 2g Eclipse suspension is about as good anything in the business but it's a racehorse, not a plowhorse.

Actually the 'Eclipse' name is said to come from a racehorse -- 19th century I think.

The specification wheelbase of a 2g car is 98.8" so both your measurements may be slightly off but probably not enough to change the conclusion: Your left front wheel is back a bit from where it should be. A careful eyeball of both sides of the front should confirm that the left front wheel is a bit farther back in the fender opening than the right one. 'Eyeball center' is the right place though and since the left is closer to the spec than the right, the problem could be on the right side.

Assuming you're able to figure out which wheel is in the wrong place I'd get it up on ramps and inspect and then measure the various parts most likely to be wrong.

The front-to-rear position of the front wheels is determined mainly by three parts: (1) the subframe running forward from the body to which everything is fastened -- not likely the only or main problem, (2) the lateral lower arm -- this sticks straight out and is very stiff, it's the part the shock absorber and spring fasten to, and (3) the compression lower arm, a curved piece that connects the knuckle (where the wheel bearing is) to the subframe behind the lateral lower arm.

These three parts form a triangle: If the wheel end of that triangle is in the wrong place, one side of the triangle is wrong and if you can't see anything obvious just by comparing the left and right front wheels, then I'd carefully measure the compression lower arms and inspect the subframe where they are attached.

If an hour's study of the situation doesn't show anything then a similar process can be applied at the rear. But an inch on the wheelbase is enough that you should be able to figure out what part is guilty.

The two lower arms are straightforward driveway repair jobs -- maybe half a day the first time if you're used to car suspension work and have the tools. But even if you're going to pay someone to fix it up, doing the diagnosis yourself is useful so you'll know that the recommended fix will actually fix what's broken.

Generally suspension parts should be replaced on both sides at the same time and depending on the mileage on your car you may want to replace more than just the damaged parts of the assembly -- the ball joints at the outer ends of all the arms wear out at around 100k miles and the usual fix is to replace the arm assembly including the ball joint. Counting parts and labor both sides replacing it all including shocks I'd guess the $1000 ballpark. But -- if the joints and shocks are good and only one part is damaged then you could replace just that one for a fraction the price.

Of course you may get under there and see that something is truly bashed -- shoved into or pulled out of the subframe or something like that. Or that there's damage in more than one place and the chassis is involved. For that you would want a collision repair guy and they can generally fix anything you could possibly drive to the shop so it's good as new. For a price, of course.

A pothole big enough to bend suspension or chassis parts might well destroy the tire and/or wheel -- any mismatch could be a clue.

Good luck with it!

Thank you for the info! I plan on putting it on jack stands at some point and looking over the suspension components. Im hoping its gonna be something small. I found a 12 piece front end suspension kit for $250 so I plan on taking that route if need be

 

[pauleyman]

Thank you for the info! I plan on putting it on jack stands at some point and looking over the suspension components. Im hoping its gonna be something small. I found a 12 piece front end suspension kit for $250 so I plan on taking that route if need be

Beware of cheap parts. If it's mevotech no thanks.
Post up info please.

 

[waltah]

Is it still on the oem compression arms? This will cause a set back difference also since they did that to counter act the road curve. Have a check and change them to new age ones as they ditched that idea for equal ones now, that will help you start off.

Holy ... something. Who'd have guessed?

Castor is the angle in the front-rear direction between the steering axis (around which the wheel rotates to make a left or right turn) and vertical. It's + when the axis tilts back at the top and + castor makes the wheel try to turn in toward the car. If the left compression lower arm is shorter than the right (which would cause shorter wheelbase on the left) then there'd be less inward force on the left, which would tend to make the car steer slightly left, against the slope of a crowned road when driving on the right as in the U.S.

How beneficial this is who knows, but a '95 car (and maybe later models? does anyone know?) would likely have it if any did.

The '97 Talon manual that I have doesn't mention it --- it gives castor =+4 degrees 30 minutes +/- 1 degree 30 minutes. A 1" reduction in castor would be around 3 degrees -- probably a bit outside the spec but not likely enough to notice.

Neither castor nor camber (tilt of the wheel either toward the car or outward) is adjustable with factory parts on these cars -- if out of spec you replace parts or repair damage. There are aftermarket sellers who offer adjustable components for special situations.

In any case this changes the situation for you, Michael. Before doing anything else I'd get the front up and inspect. If everything looks okay measure the left and right compression lower arms and if the left is about 1" shorter then probably ec17's info applies. You could take the car back to the wheel alignment guy and tell him "That's perfectly normal. Do the toe in, please."

Toe in (amount the front edges of the tires are closer together than rear edges) is the only thing adjustable on the fronts of our cars. It is a Big Deal for tire wear and pretty important for handling. There are redneck techniques for adjusting it but the best answer is the guy with an alignment machine.

Only if the ball joints are shot or parts are damaged would replacement be needed. If you're going to replace anything, wait for alignment until that's done.

Guess who is going to have his car up on ramps tomorrow measuring compression lower arms? I'll be replacing them soon anyhow because the balls are shot (150k miles, clicking sound when making very slow turns on a flat parking lot. and the upper arm balls were trash when changed a month ago) but ... curiosity.

Thanks, Ec17!