Alignment gone wrong

[ViciousLord]

Someone with these non-offset compression arms needs to measure from the ball-joint to the inboard pivot. Maybe the arms are now different in length, instead of being the same and using offset brackets.

Id be able to if i knew that terminology...

I'm in the same boat. I have all the pieces sitting in boxes, can easily measure anything you'd like if I knew exactly what you wanted.

 

[jtmcinder]

I want to know if the distance from the ball-joint on the outer end to any particular point on the inboard end is the same for the left and right compression arms. My new pet theory is that the arms are no longer symmetrical, so they no longer have to use offset brackets in the inboard bushing.

 

[ViciousLord]

I want to know if the distance from the ball-joint on the outer end to any particular point on the inboard end is the same for the left and right compression arms. My new pet theory is that the arms are no longer symmetrical, so they no longer have to use offset brackets in the inboard bushing.

they look damn near identical....

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I measured both arms from outer edge of ball joint to the red dot on the side of both arms... the red dot looks to be in the same position.

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both arms measured 10 5/8 from balljoint to the center of the red mark.

 

[greengoblin]

Measure like this and see if the two arms are are different. You really only need to measure each arm in one place. My guess is they are the same.

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[ViciousLord]

alright give me 2 min.

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in this last pic... the tape measure bowed out a little, straighten out it reads 17 13/16


17 13/16 both arms inside and out

 

[Zefal151]

Maybe they are the same since both new but could be different from the originals

 

[jtmcinder]

Well, in that case, I look forward to seeing if you have the same caster on both side. And thanks a bunch for doing the measuring. I find this sort of petty detail fascinating and "my" DSM moved out several years ago.

 

[snowborder714]

I wonder if the eBay compression arms have the same design or if they are offset. I'll have to check, but I think they're offset.

Thanks for doing the measuring. I'm interested to see what your caster settings are like as well.

 

[Zefal151]

So im swapping in the morning, but im going to use the original if its the offset, if its not the offset, then we all know what my caster is,

 

[Zefal151]

So just checked my car, the control arm I have uses the off center eyelet so as soon as I pull it off I will get the measurement for you

 

[Zefal151]

Alright so here are my measurements.

Spare control arm: center eyelet

Bolt to outside most part of eyelet:
Top: 17.5"
Bottom:17.5"

Bolt to outside edge of eyelet hole:
Top: 17 5/16"
Bottom: 17 5/16"

Eyelet itself: 1/4" on both sides of eyelet

My control arm: offset eyelet

Bolt to outside most part of eyelet:
Top: 17.5"
Bottom:17.5"

Bolt to outside edge of eyelet hole:
Top: 17"
Bottom: 17"

Eyelet itself: 1/4" on one side of eyelet, 1/2" on other

Estimated measurement of flipped eyelet:
17 4/16" on offset eyelet

Difference of distance would be 1/16" further out on center eyelet (guesstimate)

These are my findings but I'm trying to get an alignment with the center eyelet to see the caster difference

 

[gofer]

Cleaned it up a little, I'm more of a visual guy.

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[Zefal151]

Lol that's not too bad actually

 

[ViciousLord]

LoL. simplified. I got a little crazy posting pictures. I didn't want anyone doubting my measurements.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Id like to think that Gofer's graphic is telling me that the arms are different, but I'm going to need more than that I think.

Hang on, we measured 2 different arms? Sorry I thought we measured both arms that came from the knuckle kit. Knowing that the offset arm and the centered arm measure differently doesn't do me a tonne of favors.
Ah! I flipped back a page and see that the knuckle kit arms are identical.

Thanks for the efforts here guys. Always interested in this kind of stuff. For what it's worth, I purchased 2 replacement eBay compression arms (won't do that again, another topic..) and I do not recall if the holes were offset or centered, but I do know they were the same. Landed me about 4.5 or so of caster on both sides, almost identical readings.

 

[gofer]

Yes its different between the two control arms and, if Chris and I did basic reasoning correctly, we came to realize that the control arms with the bushing centered (not offset) will give you more caster adjustment than flipping the bushing in the offset control arm.

Anyone? Just wondering if our assumption is correct or not.

 

[Jeff99GS]

I'm a little confused. I just put some offset upper ball joints on my Talon and the guy at NTB got it aligned perfect 0.00 all around. Why dont you just do that?

 

[snowborder714]

0 all around meaning 0 camber? We're not talking about camber (Corey, I think you posted camber when you meant caster).

And I know there's a reason not to run 0 camber, but I'm not positive of why, so hopefully someone else can fill in the missing info.

 

[Zefal151]

Yes its different between the two control arms and, if Chris and I did basic reasoning correctly, we came to realize that the control arms with the bushing centered (not offset) will give you more camber adjustment than flipping the bushing in the offset control arm.

Anyone? Just wondering if our assumption is correct or not.

It would be caster not camber.

Here are my alignment results

Front
Left - Item - Right

-1.7 - Camber - -1.4

4.2 - Caster - 5.6

0.05 - Toe - 0.04

0.08 - Total Toe

Rear
Left - Item - Right

-1.7 - Camber - -1.6

0.16 - Toe - 0.11

0.27 - Total Toe

I believe the Toe on my rear is worse then original due to the new rear camber kit moving things a bit

As for a couple posts back in regards to the arms. Gofer and I measured the original arm on my car which has the offset eyelets, and then measured the replacement arm which has the centered eyelet. We wanted to know what the difference was between the two to see which would be better overall...

As Gofer was saying, if our measurements were correct, then the Center Eyelet control arm is better then the Off Center eyelet control arm. Another thing i noticed while comparing the two is that i believe that the control arm with the Center Eyelet is a few pounds lighter then the offset one, noticeable size difference in the metal on the eyelets themselves.

 

[Jeff99GS]

0 all around meaning 0 camber? We're not talking about camber (Corey, I think you posted camber when you meant caster).

And I know there's a reason not to run 0 camber, but I'm not positive of why, so hopefully someone else can fill in the missing info.

Oh i see...I just dont like going through $800 dollars worth of tires every summer haha so I didnt want any negative camber. Now i realize you guys were talking about caster tho, sorry.

 

[gofer]

Fixed. Caster it is...

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[snowborder714]

Oh i see...I just dont like going through $800 dollars worth of tires every summer haha so I didnt want any negative camber. Now i realize you guys were talking about caster tho, sorry.

Toe is what eats tires. You can run negative camber as long as your toe is set to 0 all around (or as darn close as you can get it). However if you can't get toe close enough, then the negative camber will quicken the wear on your tires.

Not saying that negative camber will have absolutely no affect on tire wear, but it will be very minimal as long as toe is properly adjusted.

But running negative camber is not bad at all, and will actually improve handling.

 

[Jeff99GS]

Yeah incorrect toe will deff eat tires bad...I was just getting BAD wear on the inner edge of my front tires from all the negative camber. I put those adjustable ball joints on and now its good! Heres a pic of my friends tire that was doing the same thing from too much negative camber. Im not trying to change the subject tho. You are right tho about a lil negative camber being good. Especially if you're taking high speed turns and all that.

 

[greengoblin]

Wow. That is nasty. It looks like a flat spot

 

[Zefal151]

This might be my opinion but that looks like something more then camber caused that. From my personal experience with balding tires, if its only camber to blame its a fairly even wear around the edge not just spots of bad wear with some wear. That would be more of a tire hop (due to not being balanced), possibly a caster issue mixed in with some possible sliding on the tires. I'm pretty sure one of the "legends" could tell it better then me though