Haltech Alcohol causing detonation? (Haltech data logs too)

[turboglenn]

Okay, I've said that I'm not that well versed in alcohol injection so here's what i observed today.

I made multiple passes on gas alone to get my AFR's right on target through the entire band from 3-8k RPM. I was seeing ~2* of timing being pulled after modifying my timing curve after seeing the first signs of detonation. After everything was smoothed out and dialed in i was able to pull all the way to redline with only a trace of knock here and there.

Here's where it gets weird. I turned the alky back on to see if those few degrees would disappear on alcohol... To my surprise i ended up with more knock on the alcohol than i did on just plain pump gas. *scratches head while dumb-founded*

Now the only thing i can think of is that when my AFR's were deep into the 10's and 9's it was knocking from too much fuel ( I'm guessing because it went away when i leaned it out)

But my question is can the alcohol be richening it up enough to knock from richness or is there something else happening? I pulled several logs (knock isn't loggable though) and am only seeing a max of twenty degrees cooler air while running alky. (60* on it compared to 80 off alky..this is in teh end of 4th after a full 3rd-4th pull) So do i not have enough, too much or is there something else i should look into?

Also my knock sensor goes crazy on gear shifts, and even more so on alky. I've desensitized the knock monitor to a good point and don't want to make it any less sensitive that it is now, but i want to get to the bottom of this. Especially if I'm going to pull the test of running no FMIC on alky injection alone for cooling ( my other thread)

Do i need to tune it to the 11.5 on the alcohol, or should i be fine at 11.5 on gas and then adding the alky? ...please, only people with FIRST HAND experience only on this one for replies

 

[FORMONTOYA]

With a wide-band O2 you should tune around 10.5/1 to 11/1 (depending on setup) and about an extra .5/1 with injection (11/1 to 11.5/1). But yes, you will lean out the mix with injection (water/alky/meth).

 

[turboglenn]

Okay, thanks..also i need to correct my first post. THe max temp difference after a good 3-4 pull was 20* not 10 as i stated earlier. but it was in the 10's in AFR and knocking more , so i guess i'll make a 2nd map for alky testing for now.

I'm putting these up here so everyone that's following the 2 experiments i'm playing with can see the data first hand and have no questions about timing, duty % etc...

here's the datalogs follow instructions here to load and view

Download all the following links into one folder. Open the zip file to your same folder that you downloaded the files into so the program can find the map and logs. Then Run the e6k.exe file and hit "N" to "work offline"

Then go to File, Load Maps and select from the download folder "CAMS1"

Then you can go to "options" and select "Data Log"

then Select "load data log" then pick one of the three logs. 15WA, 15WOA and 15WO2 (15 psi with and without alcohol denoted by the initials on the log)

once the data log is open hit "C" to configure the data displayed, highlight "battery voltage" and hit enter, it will move to the box on the right. Then go to the box on the right and highlight "duty cycle" and hit enter again and it will move duty cycle to the left box. All parameters listed on the left will be displayed, all on the right won't. Then hit the space bar and it will go back to the log showing all the data that the box on the left contained.

the 3 files names 15xxx are the data logs... 15WA was 15 psi with alky... 15WOA is the first pull with out alky and 15WO2 is the second LONG pull all through 3rd and 4th , again no alcohol in that run either

Run this install file to have the hatlech software on your PC.. it will not harm it and is very small and runs in a DOS window.
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/E6Kv634.zip

This map must be loaded to properly view logs
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/CAMS1.6KM

Here's the logs
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/15WA.HDL
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/15WO2.HDL
http://members.cox.net/50reasons/15WOA.HDL

EDIT: I should mention i'm running blue juice in the meth system and an M7 nozzle at stock pump pressure too

 

[spyderturbo007]

I remember in your other post you were talking about removing the intercooler, is that the case here? As for your low AFR causing knock, I doubt that's the case. I have logs with AFR's between 9.5 & 10:1, on Meth with no knock.

The "blue juice" you're referring to is windshield washer fluid, correct? You didn't happen to get the bug formula stuff? You can check by shaking the container, if it foams up, you don't want it.

 

[turboglenn]

Well, first off the FMIC is ON THE CAR, i am trying to get teh full benefit of the of teh meth/water injection before i go to that extreme.

As for the "blue juice" i do mean windshield winter mix, I haven't shaken it, but I also haven't seen any bubblesin it. It's Peak brand -20 so im not sure. I spent 4 hours searching other meth related posts last night and it seems most people are having the best luck with pure meth. At least as far as high timing #"s on high boost. I'm just stumped on why it's bringing on knock early to run the system. without it..almost zero knock, when it comes on i can see anywhere from 3-6* get pulled mid power band. I'm almost convinced it's because the mix gets too rich on the meth since i tuned to 11:1 off of it with little to no knock.

This is why i was affraid to push it on the dyno the other day, i knew that if i weren't monitoring knock i was going to do some damage. (my MSD knock sensor fried that day) Now i'm not sure if the weird ass sound when my motor free revs is a vibration from the BSE or if i beat my rod bearings to hell on the dyno with no knock detection unit. (although it doesn't sound like rod bearings, but i guess it could be) ANd if the weather was warmer and i hadn't put a new oil pan gasket on less than 500 miles ago, i would at least pull them and see what they look like and replace anyway.

My wideband cannot be calibrated for lambda, or for any other fuels. The guy who built it was an automotive engineer and at the time my only request was for it to be as accurate as possible on pump and race gas (non oxygenated)

I have a mix of 53% water 47% meth that i WAS going to run, but now i'm having my doubts about the mix

Well, the weather is a lot warmer today, i think i'll get back out there here soon and finish the tune if i can figure out how to get rid of the knock. I think i'm going to start a 2nd map for alcohol and tune soley depending on it for AFR and see what happens.

 

[rrussell]

I can't read the logs because I'm using xp on my computer.

I know there is a way to make xp work but I can't find it now?

Do you know how?

 

[turboglenn]

I'm on XP pro (with the ultimate edition add ons) and it just worked for me. It takes over the whole screen with a DOS window. I just unzipped the file i uploaded and put it on this PC and it's never had the software put on it and it worked. Maybe unzip and try again???

UPDATE: Upon my frustration with this problem i was out installing the knock monitor of the J&S into the guage bezel. well afterwards i needed a new chapstick, mine was empty. So when i get to teh gas station HEET is right there in front of me and i knew from checking earlier that my tank was about empty (maybe a little less than 1/4 tank) So, from some of the things i read on here i decided to dump 2 bottles of heet in with teh remaining 1/2 quart of blue juice and things got really good. I ran it long enough for the last of the "pure blue juice" to work out of the line, i was still seeing knock at this point.

Then all of the sudden i'm hammering into it in 2nd (where i get tons of knock reading from wheels bouncing and breaking loose) and the knock just went away mid pull. Finally there was no timing being pulled especially at my low boost.But remember i was able to get no knock on pump gas alone, it was teh alcohol coming in making me knock for some reason. But when this happened, I was so amazed that i circled the 5 mile route around my neighborhood and kept getting into it, doing everything i could to see if she'd knock. And one time i saw 1* get pulled a few times while roasting the tires in 2nd gear. I made several more pulls and although i was only at 16psi and 18* timing i was not seeing ANY knock at all...none, zip, nada!!!!!! wohoooooooo, then i cranked the boost to 18, again NO KNOCK..YEY! I think i'm going to change nozzles and run an 80/20 mix of water and HEET. I am going to test this tank, then go back to a 50/50 mix i made myself from heet and dist. water and see what the change is, if it starts knocking again i'm sticking with more meth less water in my mix.

Hopefully the meth keeps keeping the motor quiet, i'm injecting very little right now. WAY less than the math says i should, so when i get the numbers bumped up on my nozzles ( and get my dual nozzles in) I'm going to continue back and forth between meth and water and mixes of both to see what's best before i officially start the no FMIC test in my other thread. I want to be running at least 20-24 PSI by the time i do that test.

Also, i'im seeing some knock on initial rev of the gas when taking off in first. Anyone else ever see this? I can dial the sensitivity out more, but i'd rather not. Just wondering if i should lower timing in the initial free rev areas or let it be. No matter, i'm happy as hell with what happened after my chapstick run, lets just hope the HEET keeps on doing what it did for me the 5-6 minutes i got to play while running mosty meth.

 

[rrussell]

Well that's good news. You had me baffled there for a moment. I've never tried the windshield wash. I've had great success with denatured alcohol and water running a 50/50 mix.

Also, i'im seeing some knock on initial rev of the gas when taking off in first.

I've only seen this when I was running to much fuel in the range of 11.5 around 5000rpm when I launch the car. So I took fuel out and leaned it out to 12.8 and it went away.

At this point I could start my initial setting on the progressive controller at anywhere from 5psi to 10psi and it wouldn't knock.

 

[turboglenn]

the knock on initial rev i am seeing is only revving enough to take off in traffic 2-3k max (i'm FWD, i can't launch unless i'm on slicks and even that's a smokey tire wasting affair.

I can't wait till tomorrow to get out and test some more.. I just wish i hadn't wasted a bunch of HEET making a gallon of my own water/meth mix *bangs head on desk*

 

[rrussell]

the knock on initial rev i am seeing is only revving enough to take off in traffic 2-3k max (i'm FWD, i can't launch unless i'm on slicks and even that's a smokey tire wasting affair.

I can't wait till tomorrow to get out and test some more.. I just wish i hadn't wasted a bunch of HEET making a gallon of my own water/meth mix *bangs head on desk*

2-3 rpm that's weird. It must be something the knock sensor is picking up other then real knock. I just can't imagine it would be knocking at that level of load and rpm.

Man if you lived closer I would give you all the "Klean Strip" denatured alcohol you want. I over bought and now I'm storing about five gallons of it.WTF

 

[turboglenn]

Yea, i'm either going to dial a little timing out or adjust the sensitivity on the knock sensor and see what happens. My knock sensor isn't active till past 1250 RPM and 1.75 volts of TPS, so if i tip into it that much for my initial rev before releasing the clutch i get a couple degrees of knock. It may be some piston slap, my motor is a bit old. Not to mention the beating my car tool on the dyno has had me paying attention to a weird vibrating noise in the motor. The only thing i could think of is if the rod bearings took a bad beating on the dyno they may be loose, but i figure i would have spun one by now if that was the case.

i'm kinda stumped, but dialing timing out tomorrow or dulling the sensors level should help. The vibration noise doen't show up in the higher RPMs though so i seriously dount it's bearings since they should get loud enough to cause knock at a good 7k rpm 15psi pull.

Plus with the way she's running on pure HEET might be the trick i needed for getting my 25psi and a decent timing curve on pump gas. I'm going to up the nozzle size tomorrow on the meth as well and crank up the boost to 20 and retune to 11.5 on meth with an M10 nozzle


EDIT: Today i found out that the blue juice i had been running was only 30% meth and 70% water. Maybe this is why i was seeing additional knock with the alky turned on (too much water??). Not too sure, this is just some speculation that arose from a discussion i had with a friend this morning who owns another speed shop here in town and has had more experience with alky injection.

Today is nice out, well 38*, so i might get out and try to tune some more as soon as i get breakfast with the woman. We got up and tried to go to the caucuses but we were 5 minutes too late and the doors closed on us

EDIt # 2:I pulled my nozzle to change to a M10 and when i did the filter screen was full of crap from the blue juice. I had flushed the entire system with a quart of WW fluid upon the install to clear any debri, and there was still enough gunk in it to dirty up the filter pretty heavily after only running most of a gallon through it. I'm mixing my own from now on if i don't go straight heet

Well, i changed the title to keep anyone from getting the wrong idea about water/meth injection in general

Tomorrow i hope to up the boost to 20 psi and tune it down to 11.5:1 on gas only and see where i am at. I'll then dial the timing up till i see knock.

Then I'm going to add the 80/20 meth mix on top of that tune and see what happens. If it doesn't change much as far as knock I'm going to lean it out and try and run it at 11.5:1 while the alky is spraying.

i will see which one yields the best boost and timing #'s and report back. The weather is only supposed to be 17 tomorrow and i have to help a friend who put his timing belt on with the ex cam 2 teeth off (retarded) get it back on right so he can get some vacuum and idle quality back. I'm so surpised he got luck enough to only retard the exhaust cam or he'd be pulling the head tomorrow..wheww

Is anyone having trouble seeing the logs? I don't have a DOT matrix printer to send them to and then scan to make them text and i can't figure out how to export from a DOS program.

 

[turborebel]

I had better luck with mostly water,but at that time I had no wide band AFR meter to monitor. I took it out during my last overhaul and have not put it back on yet.