Aem Plug And Play Ems

[RocketDSM]

One big thing a sho can do that you can't....DYNO. Your butt cannot tune an ECU to it maximum potential. Their dynos can. That is why you should let a shop tune an ECU.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by 2-0turbo
You are kidding, right? Speak for yourself. I like to do my own work and this is definitely one task that I will not be contracting out.

I wish you luck but your kidding yourself if you think you can just walk in and start tooning your car with no wideband just going off of feel. The base maps that they provide are for a stock car with stock cams, stock injectors etc. Its enough that you should be able to drive it to a dyno to make your own base map. This isnt an safc you aren’t fixing spots on a stock ecu. You are building your own map. It takes a major shop 2-3 hrs on a dyno to setup up a car. Your fooling yourself if you think you can sort that out on your own on the street with no tools. Regardless good luck I hope your prove me wrong.

If you have problems when other people touch your car you should take it to a responsible shop that knows what they are doing.

 

[2-0turbo]

Originally posted by rdrkt


I wish you luck but your kidding yourself if you think you can just walk in and start tooning your car with no wideband just going off of feel.

You are right--you can't "tune" a car from feel. And, I am not going to discount the benefits of a dyno. (I wish I had one!) But, I do have a wideband and and EGT and, coupled with the logging capability of the EMS, I think I can get pretty close. I will disagree on this: I am not going to be able to extract the last little bit of HP without dyno time--I can't. But, to simply hand the car over and let a shop play with it for 3 hours is unnecessary and a waste of my money, in my opinion.

The biggest challenges to a standalone are not just producing max power. There are only a few variables that are going to effect WOT, max power stuff. Timing and fuel are the biggest, and just like you can adjust fuel quickly via your AFC, you can do the same with the EMS. You cannot adjust your timing, so that adds some complexity to the EMS installation. But since everything is capable of feedback (closed loop), I could set my timing a bit aggressive and make the ECU retard the timing based on high EGT, knock, coolant temperature, throttle position--the sky is the limit.

The other stuff like: smooth idle, not stalling with you push in the clutch, not stalling when you turn the steering wheel, starting and staying running when the engine is hot/cold, throttle tip-in, lift-throttle operation, correct O2 feedback in closed loop, fuel trims, etc.--you don't need a dyno to fiddle with all these things. Why do I want to pay someone else $100/hr to rev the engine up, push in the clutch and see if the engine dies and then adjust a parameter?

Obviously, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I look at this project as a fun exercise, a challenge, a way to learn more about control systems and engine operation, a way to have more control over my little 4-cylinder engine and ultimately make more power than what is possible with stock ECU and piggybacks.

You see it as an insurmountable challenge to the average car guy, impossible without a dyno, with a degree of risk, best left to the "professionals". To each his own.

And, one more thing. You are NOT building your own map. The EMS comes with base maps for mass-air and speed/density setups. So, in effect, you are "fixing spots" on the base setup. From a fuel perspective, it is really not that different than an SAFC. Even if they didn't give you a map, you could generate your own from TMO datalogger outputs based on the stock mass-air setup relatively quickly. It all comes down to measuring how much air you have, combining it with the proper amount of fuel (everyone knows this ratio, right?) and lighting it off at the right time. As I have said before, it is not rocket science.

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by 2-0turbo
I want to beat you on the track!

Good luck, it's going to take more than a standalone, chief. And you have no need to get your panties in a bunch, my statement wasn't a blanket statement for everyone. The fact that you are getting butt hurt about all the warnings tells me you yourself know you have no idea what you are doing. If you did know what you were doing you would have ignored me.

 

[RocketDSM]

Minor tuning like mentioned I can see an "average" car guy having fun playing with. I was talking about using the standalone to get max hp, and a butt dyno doesn't cut it. I'm still wondering though (since nobody answered) anyone see a useful difference between the Racing Programmable EMS and the Plug And Play EMS?

 

[BatmanGSX]

Just so you guys know 2-0turbo, the standalone expert, has a 14B still. Learn to crawl before you walk, sparky.

 

[2-0turbo]

Originally posted by RocketDSM
Minor tuning like mentioned I can see an "average" car guy having fun playing with. I was talking about using the standalone to get max hp, and a butt dyno doesn't cut it. I'm still wondering though (since nobody answered) anyone see a useful difference between the Racing Programmable EMS and the Plug And Play EMS?

From AEM's website:

We want to stress that the functions and features of both the AEM Plug & Play, and AEM Race systems are virtually identical. The difference between them is that the Race System utilizes a universal plug and has no preprogrammed inputs or outputs, and the Plug & Play System uses a vehicle-specific plug that connects to the factory wiring harness, and has preprogrammed inputs and outputs for the factory sensors. Plug & Play Systems will only be limited by the number of pin outputs provided by the factory, however it will accept additional inputs and outputs and has all the capabilities of the Race System.

 

[NDgsx]

Originally posted by 2-0turbo

I am not going to be able to extract the last little bit of HP without dyno time--I can't. But, to simply hand the car over and let a shop play with it for 3 hours is unnecessary and a waste of my money, in my opinion.

Uh you know you can pay shops to dyno your car and tune it yourself right? Very few dsmers actually pay someone else to tune thier car.

So you want to make more power than you could on a stock ecu? Shooting for well over 600hp are we?

If you have never done any type of tuning you really should play around with a piggy back first. Their base maps may end up being great, I know that Jason down there (RX7 guy) really knows what he is doing, but don't put all your faith in them.
For all the part throtle, tip in, etc. driveability problems on an system with no base map it usually takes about a month of tweaking to really get it down for different temps.
I'm not going to say don't get it, just don't expect it to be cake.

 

[2-0turbo]

Originally posted by BatmanGSX
Just so you guys know 2-0turbo, the standalone expert, has a 14B still. Learn to crawl before you walk, sparky.

Hey, its ported.

 

[niterydr]

Originally posted by BatmanGSX
Just so you guys know 2-0turbo, the standalone expert, has a 14B still. Learn to crawl before you walk, sparky.

not to start anything, but hasn't the lil 14b shown 12.0 1/4 times?
thats alot faster than a heap of people i know with much larger turbos....
i wish him lots of luck, he has his head in the right area, and in the end he knows he'll have to go to the dyno, just trying to cut down on the dyno time (which is exactly what my friend john and i do with our cars, well his car, mine has been broken forever).
good luck 2-0 turbo.

 

[GalantVR41062]

Dam straight.

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by niterydr
not to start anything, but hasn't the lil 14b shown 12.0 1/4 times?
thats alot faster than a heap of people i know with much larger turbos....
i wish him lots of luck, he has his head in the right area, and in the end he knows he'll have to go to the dyno, just trying to cut down on the dyno time (which is exactly what my friend john and i do with our cars, well his car, mine has been broken forever).
good luck 2-0 turbo.

That's all really awesome. But you still don't need a standalone to do that. Your comment really has no point because no matter how respectable your time with a 14B is, using a standalone to do it is totally asinine.

I'm planning on running 850cc/min injectors and a 55lb/hr turbo with nothing more than an SAFC and 2G MAS. Standalones seem like sort of a waste when compared to a car with a $250 SAFC that will probably run circles around them.

 

[RocketDSM]

That all comes down to how accurate do you want to be. A standalone will be dead accurate and keep a car clearly within all safety margins. A SAFC will not. The standalone is basically more thorough and allows more confidence. Someone with a standalone will now exactly how far they can push it, your SAFC doesn't give you that confidence. It will let you get performance near that of a standalone, yes. But you don't know how close you are to killing the whole engine at any given time under a chance circumstance that you couldn't predict.

 

[GoFastTSI]

That all comes down to how accurate do you want to be. A standalone will be dead accurate and keep a car clearly within all safety margins. A SAFC will not. The standalone is basically more thorough and allows more confidence. Someone with a standalone will now exactly how far they can push it, your SAFC doesn't give you that confidence. It will let you get performance near that of a standalone, yes. But you don't know how close you are to killing the whole engine at any given time under a chance circumstance that you couldn't predict.

Tell me how you came to this conclusion as I would love to hear it. I'll even give you one chance to say that you're wrong before I dig holes in it.

Joe

 

[RocketDSM]

With a standalone I can finely (as in accurately) adjust each individual spec of engine operation. I don't know if the AEM can get down to single cylinder resolution or not, but I know some can. All an SAFC does is richen or lean out according to your settings. It doesn't take anything else into account. The standalone has all of its maps and processing backing it up. Poke holes all you want. I know I would feel a LOT more confident running 28psi on PUMP GAS (91 oct) with a standalone that I tuned backing me up rather than a SAFC. A standalone can adjust itself on the fly without a user input. That is all I was saying. As for unseen occurences, here's one. My wastegate actuator hose came disconnected while driving on the highway. I hit 32psi of boost with stock injectors, pump, and ECU. Guarenteed that it wanted to blow sky high. I still drive that engine today and I know it is because the ECU was able to scale things back enough to save the engine. If I had something piggybacked playing with the signals, I don't think it could have saved the engine before I got to the side of the road. A single standalone unit has been proven time and again (when tuned) to produce more power than multiple piggybacks adjusting signals. Poke holes all you want. It won't change my opinion. Is it worth the price? Yes........to me. That is an answer for each person to answer their own way. In case you didn't notice on my mod list, there is no piggyback system onboard. I don't trust anything that mutates my natural inputs.

 

[BatmanGSX]

Um what can a standalone tell you that a datalogger can't?

And I BEG you to try running 28psi on pumpgas with any system. You realize that you would have to add enough fuel to hydrolock the motor before you could get things cool enough to where it wouldn't preignite, don't you?

 

[GoFastTSI]

A standalone is only as good as the individual tuning it. This means tons of dyno time and a tuner with a vast knowledge bank to make adjustments via the dyno graph and datalogs. I've seen VPC/AFC cars that are plenty faster than standalone equipped cars. It's all in the knowledge of the person tuning it. Of course, this applies to us old school DSMer's who actually take the time to learn and max out every mod that we place on our cars before we go from a T25 to a "YoDawgLevel2000000MUTT".

Also, there isn't a standalone out there that will allow you to run 28psi on pump. Hell, I'd love to see you run 23psi on 91oct and have all your rods in their original unmolested locations. Not going to work.

 

[RocketDSM]

All I can say about the boost levels is - I did it. I don't know how, I probably couldn't do it again. But I did. Last time I checked, gauges don't just make up a number to give you a green fuzzy feeling. Now, I don't run over 17psi on 91oct. As for pooling knowledge to make a difference...get those same guys with the VPC to tune a standalone and see which one runs better, stronger, and faster. Remember that to compare things you should only have ONE variable.