About to buy a new turbo, am I ready?

[eboy0]

Hello guys, been building up to this all summer, now that it's winter time, it's time to do some serious mods.
I've had my eye on a Big 16G evo turbo for a while now, and I think it's just about time to buy it.
What want to know is, am I ready? I'm somewhat following the upgrade guide in the tech/diy.
I'm somewhat in between stage 1-2...
I have most of the stuff done:

-ebay FMIC + 2.5" tubing
- 3" exhaust with testpipe
- greddy bov type S
- boost gauge
- stage 2 clutch

No boost leaks, about to get my throttle body bored to 63mm by steve
Going to port out my O2 housing as well, to prevent boost creep.

So what do you guys think I can throw in that turbo without upgrading injectors?
I am planning on getting DSMLink in a couple of weeks as well, I'm pretty sure I'll need to upgrade fuel pump... looking at a Walbro 190(to prevent getting a FPR).
Did almost too much reading, now I just need a confirming answer.
Any info/help is greatly appreciated.

 

[YiNYaNg]

You can't do much without upgrading your injectors. Get the turbo, dsmlink, injectors, and fuel pump and get it tuned.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I would recommend getting a 255 because even with a 190 you still get some overrun and really should get a FPR. You can keep your injectors but you will have to keep the boost around 14lbs and won't really feel any difference. I would get a set of 550's or whatever size since you can compensate with DSMLink for just about anything.

 

[jking29]

If you are definitely going to dsmlink, I would not go any smaller than 850's since you compensate for them and have growing room for the future.

 

[turbodsm18]

If you are definitely going to dsmlink, I would not go any smaller than 850's since you compensate for them and have growing room for the future.

I agree with him on this....... Also "Stage 2 clutch"?????????? what kind

 

[joe]

having just put a evo 16g in I would recommend porting the turbo like crazy before installing it. also i didnt notice any mention of a boost controller?
heres the link on porting http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186525

 

[eboy0]

Yes I have a MBC, somewhat maxing out my current turbo @ 15psi daily. Notice I've been hiting fuel cut lately. Is it because of the cold?
Just got an exhaust aswell, would that be causing my fuel cut?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/ICtester.html

 

[DSMunknown]

Hello guys, been building up to this all summer, now that it's winter time, it's time to do some serious mods.
I've had my eye on a Big 16G evo turbo for a while now, and I think it's just about time to buy it.
What want to know is, am I ready? I'm somewhat following the upgrade guide in the tech/diy.
I'm somewhat in between stage 1-2...
I have most of the stuff done:

-ebay FMIC + 2.5" tubing
- 3" exhaust with testpipe
- greddy bov type S
- boost gauge
- stage 2 clutch

No boost leaks, about to get my throttle body bored to 63mm by steve
Going to port out my O2 housing as well, to prevent boost creep.

So what do you guys think I can throw in that turbo without upgrading injectors?
I am planning on getting DSMLink in a couple of weeks as well, I'm pretty sure I'll need to upgrade fuel pump... looking at a Walbro 190(to prevent getting a FPR).
Did almost too much reading, now I just need a confirming answer.
Any info/help is greatly appreciated.

I'm wondering what you have done. The possibilities are...

1. downpipe is still stock
2. downpipe has been upgraded to 3"
3. planning on upgrading downpipe to 3"
4. downpipe has been upgraded to 2.5"

If your DP is a 3", this will increase the likelyhood and effect of boost creep. If you are in this category, you may want to change that 3" down to a 2.5".










EDIT: By the way, you need to update your profile.

 

[drivemusicnow]

I would not recommend decreasing the size of the downpipe to eliminate boost creep. Proper fixes to reduce/eliminate boost creep can be found, and typically include porting the crap out of the turbine housing so that more exhaust can flow through the wastegate flapper, using a larger flapper, or upgrading to a larger external wastegate. Adding backpressure to combat your turbo being efficient (and creeping) is a backwords philosophy for tuning/modding a car.

My opinion would be that you should get DSMlink and see where you are right now as far as injectors duty cycle and airflow. Then move towards getting the fuel upgrade while pushing the 14B a little bit further, then once you've done pump/injectors/FPR... get the evo and push some big HP through it.

 

[eboy0]

Already tested for boost leaks, found none, holds 20 psi easily(t-clamps rule!).
I currently have a 3" DP all the way back, no cat, to a 4" magnaflow.
Anything past 5k rpm sounds like engine is about to erupt, it's that loud.(is that what boost creep sounds like?) a really loud leaf blower sound from the engine?
And no it's not the turbo.... because turbo is high pitched, this is a like really loud deep revving noise... I may record it if no one has any idea what I'm talking about.

Updating profile now, sorry did alot of work in past week(s).

drivemusicnow
I'll definitely look into that, wouldn't happen to be in the ohare area would you? Also, I'm running a T-25. thanks
Thanks for any advice guys!

 

[drivemusicnow]

I'm somewhat in the O'hare area... I work in Vernon hills, right off of 94, and I live in Crystal Lake, about 5 miles north of 90.

And yes that commute DOES in fact suck.


Ahh, the T-too small... well then, depending on what your budget looks like, I'd look into getting the 16g and DSMlink at the same time. You'll have to run it pretty conservatively without the injectors or fuel pump to support the turbo, but you'll still learn a lot about tuning and engine/fuel injection etc while you do this.

And as far as the noise goes, I have no idea. I've always thought DSMs sound like they're about to blow up in the higher RPMs, but that's just me.

 

[DSMunknown]

I would not recommend decreasing the size of the downpipe to eliminate boost creep. Proper fixes to reduce/eliminate boost creep can be found, and typically include porting the crap out of the turbine housing so that more exhaust can flow through the wastegate flapper, using a larger flapper, or upgrading to a larger external wastegate. Adding backpressure to combat your turbo being efficient (and creeping) is a backwords philosophy for tuning/modding a car.

In theory I would agree with you, Greg. But look here (especially post #3).

 

[drivemusicnow]

In theory I would agree with you, Greg. But look here (especially post #3).

Andy states that a large diameter exhaust will make "boost creep" worse. He is correct.

To understand the solution, we need to understand the problem.

Forgetting the compressor side of the turbo, and focusing solely on the turbine we can look at the problem. A turbine is a way to convert energy. It converts the Pressure, heat, and velocity of exhaust gasses into rotational movement. We want the turbine to be most efficient when there is the least energy going through it (AKA while it's spooling) but after this point we need to start bleeding energy off, or we'll create too much rotational movement. This is why we include a "wastegate" that allows gasses to bypass the turbine. Think of it like a dam, and we have a controlled bypass that goes around the dam that we can control with giant valve in it.

Now if that bypass isn't large enough, it cannot effectively "bleed off" enough energy/exhaust to allow us to maintain our neccesary level of output. Notice I said "Bypass" and not valve. The valve itself is a controlled restriction, however if the bypass as a WHOLE cannot flow enough, than we still run into the problem.

Things that will increase the problem: Increased pressure differential. The higher your pressure drop accross the turbine, (Pressure differential AKA exhaust manifold pressure/o2 housing pressure) is, the larger your wastegate path needs to be. The higher the Delta T (temperature differential) is, the larger your wastegate path needs to be.

Taking this back to downpipes, A 3 inch downpipe will create less "back pressure" which will effectively increase the Delta P accross the turbine. This makes the turbine more efficient, both during spool, and during upper RPMS, when you would experience boost creep.

The SOLUTION is to create an easier/larger path for the wastegate/bypass gasses to flow through. Adding restriction (by adding a cat, or going to a smaller downpipe) is like Andy said "Either is a bandaid"

And wow, I just read your next post and realize that I probably didn't need to type out all of this. Oh well, maybe somebody will learn something.

 

[eboy0]

So you guys think first DSMLink, then RC 550cc injectors will do?
Don't know if I should go with a 255 or 190... don't really want to spend 350 for FPR+setup and a fuel pump.
I'll also be porting out the O2 housing.

 

[jking29]

Honestly you should reconsider the 550's unless you already have them. You can get 850's for the same price and compensate for them easily with dsmlink. Low duty cycles on the injectors make them happy, there will be no difference in idle or gas mileage and you will room to grow in the future without changing them. Do it right, do it once definitely holds true here. As far as the fuel pump goes, what are your goals? If your goals in the end are 400whp or less go with the 190, beyond that you are looking at a 255 or supra pump.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Honestly you should reconsider the 550's unless you already have them. You can get 850's for the same price and compensate for them easily with dsmlink. Low duty cycles on the injectors make them happy, there will be no difference in idle or gas mileage and you will room to grow in the future without changing them. Do it right, do it once definitely holds true here. As far as the fuel pump goes, what are your goals? If your goals in the end are 400whp or less go with the 190, beyond that you are looking at a 255 or supra pump.

I'm not quite sure where you got that 400whp number. Going through the math:

If we assume that:
A) we're going to use an 11:1 air:fuel ratio
B) 20% drivetrain loss
C) no pressure loss through the lines
E) 50 lbs/min of flow of air = 500 hp, which equals 400AWHP
D) That I am as good at math as I think I am:

Say 50 lbs/min air flow at 11:1 compression means we need to flow approx 4.55 lbs/min of fuel. I'm going to add in our 20% safety factor, and we get 5.5 lbs/min of fuel.

Convert into CC/minute by converting 1cc of fuel into grams, and then lbs.
(5.5 * 454 Grams/lbs)/.76 (Grams/ccspecific gravity of fuel)= 3285 CCs/minute of fuel, or 197 LPH of fuel flow. Now, you already know that a walbro 190 won't be enough to flow that, but would a wally 255hp?


According to the RRE website, flows approximately 220 LPH at 73psi (assuming 14V... about 190 at 12v)

According to the 3Si website, its approx 230 LPH at 73 psi. (13.5 v)

For injectors, You have four of them, so 3285/4 gives you 821.4 CC/minute injectors, neccesitating the use of 850 or larger injectors.


To put down 400AWHP with a comfortable (for me) safety factor, you'd need at least the wally 255, and would need to 850 cc/min injectors at minimum. And I was told that 20% safety factor isn't neccesarily enough.

 

[jking29]

I'm not quite sure where you got that 400whp number. Going through the math:

If we assume that:
A) we're going to use an 11:1 air:fuel ratio
B) 20% drivetrain loss
C) no pressure loss through the lines
E) 50 lbs/min of flow of air = 500 hp, which equals 400AWHP
D) That I am as good at math as I think I am:

Say 50 lbs/min air flow at 11:1 compression means we need to flow approx 4.55 lbs/min of fuel. I'm going to add in our 20% safety factor, and we get 5.5 lbs/min of fuel.

Convert into CC/minute by converting 1cc of fuel into grams, and then lbs.
(5.5 * 454 Grams/lbs)/.76 (Grams/ccspecific gravity of fuel)= 3285 CCs/minute of fuel, or 197 LPH of fuel flow. Now, you already know that a walbro 190 won't be enough to flow that, but would a wally 255hp?


According to the RRE website, flows approximately 220 LPH at 73psi (assuming 14V... about 190 at 12v)

According to the 3Si website, its approx 230 LPH at 73 psi. (13.5 v)

For injectors, You have four of them, so 3285/4 gives you 821.4 CC/minute injectors, neccesitating the use of 850 or larger injectors.


To put down 400AWHP with a comfortable (for me) safety factor, you'd need at least the wally 255, and would need to 850 cc/min injectors at minimum. And I was told that 20% safety factor isn't neccesarily enough.

You are absolutely correct. It was my mistake. I was at work in a hurry and meant to say 400hp and not 400whp.