2G 97 Eagle Talon TSi AWD - P1104 - Rough Idle

[Krileon]

I've a 97 Eagle Talon TSi AWD that's throwing P1104 (his reader says "Manufacturer Control Fuel Air Metering") and is idling very rough. There appears to be some sort of hose that is not connected. It seams to have broken off and was apparently puttied on. Below are some pictures of the hose, but I'm not sure if it's relevant to the issue.

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My mechanic just fixed the car up again. It has all new belts, new water pump, and new exhaust. He had to put it back into time twice now. It broke down in town and wouldn't start at all (it tried though) and once he put it back in time it started right up, but now it's idling rough and throwing that error code. Once you get up to speed it seams to run perfectly fine. The car also sat for a good 3 years up to a month ago when we started fixing it up.

My mechanic threw out his shoulder working on it so he can't work on it any further for awhile so trying to get this figured out and make sure it's safe for my son to drive. My mechanic says it's ok to drive, but I'm not comfortable with the rough idle as it already broke down in town before on my son and don't want to have to go through that again.

 

[pauleyman]

Wait a min...you still have a code? You have to fix that first. Have you pulled the ecu also? Possible bad isc drivers.

 

[Krileon]

The code is P1104, which is "Turbocharger Wastegate Solenoid". From what I've read it just limits the amount of boost that you can run, which is pretty irrelevant sitting at idle. I don't see how that could contribute to my idle issue, but I'm going to take a look at it after I take out my MAF (it's right under it). No, I haven't pulled the ECU yet; I'm going to test that the IAC is going through its cycles today and if it isn't I'm going to pull the ECU and see if the drivers got damaged. None of this happened until the car ran nearly empty then my mechanic said it was out of time and put it back in time; I think I need to check the timing and see if it's a tooth or two off.

Update: Ok, performed the below tests.

1. Disconnected MAF
2. Checked RPM
3. RPM Tanked = MAF working
4. Disconnected TPS
5. RPM Stayed Steady 850-900
6. Reconnected TPS
7. RPM Jumps between 1000-1500

All the above is done in P/N. With the TPS disconnected my idle stayed pretty static and the engine sounded a heck of a lot better. I then put it in D/R and dropped to around 500 RPM. Sounds like my TPS is either not set correctly or shot. From what I understand it plays a huge role in the idle on a 2g; even more so than the BISS. What do you think?

I also checked all the lines for a vacuum leak again and still can't find a vacuum leak so I don't think that's it. I think the remaining rough idle is just the ECU needing to relearn. My IAC appears to be working as it balanced the RPMs fine and kept it from stalling while the TPS was disconnected.

 

[pauleyman]

Jesus you haven't verified timing. Do that first.

 

[Krileon]

Jesus you haven't verified timing. Do that first.

I will tomorrow if I can. I've never done anything like that though so I'm a little concerned about the steps (I've the link from here with picture steps), but couldn't get the spark plug caps off last time I tried. Sorry, still pretty new to all this (gotta start somewhere!).

Why would it be an issue only when my TPS is plugged in though? When I remove my TPS my idle sits steady at 800-900 in P/N and steady 500 at D/R. I've a bluetooth scanner coming in Tuesday and already bought Torque. Hopefully I'll be able to get a better idea of what the computer is reading then as well. My current cheap scanner just gives me error codes and lets me clear them so pretty basic.

Anyway, I really appreciate your patience with me and your suggestions. Thanks for all the help!

 

[o0GuitarKid0o]

If the mass airflow sensor is bad just disconnect When the car is running rough and see if it improves when it's unplugged , did u change the fuel filter? It's also a good a idea to test your coolent temp sensor my car ran like shit cause the wires were hanging on by a thread , check and see if your egr valve is stuck open , and I'd do a compression test and check for boost leaks with a boost leak tester

 

[Krileon]

If the mass airflow sensor is bad just disconnect When the car is running rough and see if it improves when it's unplugged , did u change the fuel filter? It's also a good a idea to test your coolent temp sensor my car ran like sh** cause the wires were hanging on by a thread , check and see if your egr valve is stuck open , and I'd do a compression test and check for boost leaks with a boost leak tester

MAF disconnected causes a massive RPM drop, so it's good. Fuel filter was fine when I had it checked a couple weeks ago. There's also no issue present under load (while driving); it's 100% idle problem. Temps are reading fine (middle of gauge) and the temp sensor isn't very old.

I suspect EGR could possibly be a culprit as well, but already put the TB back on so I really hope that's not it (wish I checked the stupid thing when TB was off); however the TB was nearly clean (barely any buildup) so I'm doubting the EGR is gunked so bad that it got stuck. I'll check it after getting my TPS adjusted and checking the timing; assuming both those check out fine.

I've yet to find any vacuum or boost leaks nor was any such issue present before the break down, but I'll keep checking (be easier to see when my bluetooth scan tool comes in).

I'm going to do as pauleyman suggested though and check the timing tomorrow then will report back my findings and go from there.

 

[911gdsmboostin]

the rpms drop in drive and reverse because its in gear and under load and cant rise with out gas, sounds like a severe vac leak and if the waste gate code is up check the vac line to the waste gate from front ro rear hoses can crack anywhere and small leaks can cause big problems and or the waste gate could possible be stuck wide open maybe but that's just a guess but I do know if its sucking hard air from an open vac from waste gate it could cause fluxuating rpms. some times a way to check is get a can of parts cleaner or brake cleaner or starting fluid and spray around all the vacuum line or anywhere it could possibly leak if the rpms rise very fast or hard when your spraying something its probly the problem.. its also knows to drop rpms given if its getting too much fuel. which come to think of it is it possible the motor is dumping more fuel then needed?? engine temp sensors going bad will make the computer think its cold and dump fuel the whole time possibly flooding the motor but id think you would smell the fuel. maybe that can spark an idea from someone else.. just my experiences. bets of luck guys.

 

[Krileon]

the rpms drop in drive and reverse because its in gear and under load and cant rise with out gas, sounds like a severe vac leak and if the waste gate code is up check the vac line to the waste gate from front ro rear hoses can crack anywhere and small leaks can cause big problems and or the waste gate could possible be stuck wide open maybe but that's just a guess but I do know if its sucking hard air from an open vac from waste gate it could cause fluxuating rpms. some times a way to check is get a can of parts cleaner or brake cleaner or starting fluid and spray around all the vacuum line or anywhere it could possibly leak if the rpms rise very fast or hard when your spraying something its probly the problem..

I've been using some carb/throttle body cleaner to check for leaks, but its really hard without being able to wirelessly monitor the RPMs. It'll be a lot easier come Tuesday when my bluethooth scanner comes in so I can check better. I agree it could just be a vac leak, but I haven't found it yet. I checked the solenoid and it's gunked up pretty bad with dirt and grease I'm guessing. Need to clear some stuff out of the way and check those lines better.

its also knows to drop rpms given if its getting too much fuel. which come to think of it is it possible the motor is dumping more fuel then needed?? engine temp sensors going bad will make the computer think its cold and dump fuel the whole time possibly flooding the motor but id think you would smell the fuel. maybe that can spark an idea from someone else.. just my experiences. bets of luck guys.

I don't smell any fuel and the temp looks good.

 

[911gdsmboostin]

You can usually hear the rpms drop, and the gunked up solinoid can deff coz problems I'd take it apart and give it a good cleaning best you can. Also I had a Honda it had 2-3 temp sensors theirs one for the guage in the cluster their was one for the fans and one for the ecu their could be more then one the one that will coz problems is the one to the ecu or the fans the guage one won't do much but that was on a Honda not sure how many are on the dsms if u have a service manual it would help

 

[SNAKE_15]

If your timing is off, that causes a rough idle/drive. Check that first to make sure your car won't jump.

 

[911gdsmboostin]

If it's a rough idle due to beig off time your gonna have problems the 4g63 is a interference engine meaning off time bent valves and ony been runnin like this might wanna do a leak down check and a quick compression check to see if the damage is done already

 

[Krileon]

If your timing is off, that causes a rough idle/drive. Check that first to make sure your car won't jump.

Going to check the timing late today. Right now it's insanely hot (Georgia heat).

If it's a rough idle due to beig off time your gonna have problems the 4g63 is a interference engine meaning off time bent valves and ony been runnin like this might wanna do a leak down check and a quick compression check to see if the damage is done already

It drives fine and doesn't sound like I've bent valves. You can check what my engine sounds like with the video on page 1, but as far as I can tell all I have is some lifter tick (goes away once car is warm). The issue appears to be purely idle. I'll do a compression test though if I can figure out how. Been doing some searching, but it seams a bit out of my league at this time nor do I have the tools for it.

 

[911gdsmboostin]

Its easy to do a compression test and u can get the tool at ur local auto parts store advanced or auto zone can prob let u barrow them u just screw threaded rubber hose into spark plug pull the main coil so no spark! U do not want the engine to start then just turn key let engine turn over a few times and check the psi should be in the upper 130-150psi u can also turn motor over by hand with a rachet or wrench[DOUBLEPOST=1410106650][/DOUBLEPOST]Also forgot to mention when checking ur timing marks its good to go around at least 4 times I'm not 100% sure on this but 4 stroke meaning it needs 4 revolutions to be at the point where it will fire and the marks should line up

 

[pauleyman]

alright...back up. If idle changes when you unplug stuff and it smooths out id say its a control issue. I wouldnt rule out timing just yet but my top two are ecu and timing in that order. Possibly both. You asked about the boost solenoid.....well if ecu wants to control that it also changes ignition timing. On a failsafe if it cant control that solenoid I would bet timing is yanked also. Ecu does not know if hoses are connected. It only knows the electrical portion. Solnoid can be broken as long as the coils work.
Btw do not confuse ignition timing and mechanical timing. When your mechanic said he had to "reset timing" what was he referring to?

 

[Krileon]

If idle changes when you unplug stuff and it smooths out id say its a control issue.

It only improves and stabilizes with the TPS unplugged. With it plugged in my idle bobbles between 1000-1500 RPM. With it unplugged it bobbles between 800-900 RPM. Putting in D/R still causes an RPM drop, but with it unplugged it's at least stable. I think the TPS is set wrong or just flat out broken and telling the computer that the throttle is 100% or something. I won't really know until my new bluetooth scan tool shows up Tuesday as I've no idea what the computer is seeing right now; all I have atm is a very basic scan tool to check CEL.

When your mechanic said he had to "reset timing" what was he referring to?

I don't know. I just assumed he meant the timing belt as I didn't know there was 2 different timings, but he may have meant the ignition timing as the injectors weren't pulsing. He said he put it back in time and it cranked fine again, but had rough idle; however drives fine. I'll be checking the mechanical timing later today to make sure it's set correctly.

Update: Ok, was going to do the timing test as shown below, but I don't have a socket long enough to take out the spark plugs. So will be getting that ordered or pick one up tomorrow.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1g-2g-quick-timing-belt-alignment-check.306607/

 

[mustracetsi]

Is your timing on timing belt. I can relate. My water pump shot out on me last week. Tackled it yesterday and put everything back. While I took timing belt off one of my cams slightly move. I realigned it spun motor couple times and was off a tooth. Realigned once again. Rotated couple times all line up. Waited half hour rotated couple times all lined up. Put everything on and fluids. Car started right up,but idling like you said at idle.Sound like a suby like it wants to stall but don't died. Idle flutuates 1k·800rpms and hear the aic opening and closing. Now I got ti wait to get a timing like to see if its advanced or retard take all back out and figure out timing. Must say my car not lagging like it was before and responds good except for idle. I know is time because my motor never idled like that. And you said your mechanic did your timing twice it may be off a slight bit as well. Praying for both of us. My marks line up but I know is off.

 

[Krileon]

Is your timing on timing belt. I can relate. My water pump shot out on me last week. Tackled it yesterday and put everything back. While I took timing belt off one of my cams slightly move. I realigned it spun motor couple times and was off a tooth. Realigned once again. Rotated couple times all line up. Waited half hour rotated couple times all lined up. Put everything on and fluids. Car started right up,but idling like you said at idle.Sound like a suby like it wants to stall but don't died. Idle flutuates 1k·800rpms and hear the aic opening and closing. Now I got ti wait to get a timing like to see if its advanced or retard take all back out and figure out timing. Must say my car not lagging like it was before and responds good except for idle. I know is time because my motor never idled like that. And you said your mechanic did your timing twice it may be off a slight bit as well. Praying for both of us. My marks line up but I know is off.

Honestly I don't think my issue is timing. Yours might not be either. I'm suspecting my base idle is off and my TPS is shot. Both would completely wreck the cars ability to control idle, but have no effect on drive. If it's not my TPS and base idle then it's probably a vacuum leak I've yet to find. Does yours drive fine like mine does?

 

[mustracetsi]

Yes my drives like yours. That is I and others said have timing checked. My car didn't act like this until I took timing belt off to do water pump. Put in time rotated and was tooth off redid it and all lining up but acts like this now. No vac or boost leak because had none before and took nothing off related to vac. All I did was not put the ac belt back due to it does not work. And spark plugs only two months old along with the wires to

 

[Krileon]

Yes my drives like yours. That is I and others said have timing checked. My car didn't act like this until I took timing belt off to do water pump. Put in time rotated and was tooth off redid it and all lining up but acts like this now. No vac or boost leak because had none before and took nothing off related to vac. All I did was not put the ac belt back due to it does not work. And spark plugs only two months old along with the wires to

I'll be checking my timing come Thursday when new socket set comes in so I can get the spark plugs off. I doubt it's off, but if it is I'll be pretty disappointed in my mechanic. I'm still new to all this and trusting his ability, but suppose I'll see by end of this week.

 

[mustracetsi]

Keep us updated. My update is I took it for a spin my battery light brake and at temp turn on got it home checked the belt and harness all looks good. But car don't start like battery died. Hopefully my alternator didn't crap out on me too.

 

[pauleyman]

You dont have to remove plugs. Its just easier to turn the motor if you do.

 

[Krileon]

You dont have to remove plugs. Its just easier to turn the motor if you do.

Will I be able to turn it by hand if I don't? So I should just put it in N then start turning to until it lines up or after a few turns if it never lines up it's not in time? I understood the point of putting a screw driver down #1 was to check that it's at its highest point and at that point if it doesn't line up you're out of time. Guess I need to do more searching as this is getting ever more confusing, .

 

[pauleyman]

Ideally you should use you crank timing marks. As a quick test you can just set the crank at tdc with the harmonic balancer marks then check the cams. Also the cams should always be lined up identically like twins. If one is perfectly aligned with dowels up and the other isnt youve got a problem

 

[Krileon]

Ideally you should use you crank timing marks. As a quick test you can just set the crank at tdc with the harmonic balancer marks then check the cams. Also the cams should always be lined up identically like twins. If one is perfectly aligned with dowels up and the other isnt youve got a problem

Think I'll just wait until I can do the screw driver check so I can easily get TDC. Otherwise I won't really know what I'm looking for. Anyway, when the tools come in I'll get to testing and update yas with my findings. I'll take a picture of the timing as well encase I don't interpret my findings properly.

 

[911gdsmboostin]

Be warey of the screw driver idea it will get a close but won't be right when the piston is at tdc their is a moment when the rod hots perfectly upnand down and a moment before the piston is all the way up but the rod and crank sent and a moment after the rod is past tdc but the piston hasn't started its way back down this can confuse ppl and also have them set timing wrong the best way is to find the mark on the balancer its the only way to be sure look it up about the point when the piston is all the way up but the crank isn't it has to rotate so many degrees to be at tdc and then go past when the piston comes down this is from a engineers stand point and is important in the timing nprocess can out u a tooth off in either direction and u will never know why a good machines can tell you my father is a performance machines and wen pplntry to use these little tricks he scolds the! Because ppl can denanate motors over it and loose power