6 Bolt in a 2G Won't Crank... HELP!

[95GSXBLUR]

Alright guys - Crunched for time, so here's the story.

Just swapped a 6 bolt into my 95 GSX. Mods are current in Profile. Used method #2 wiring, where i swicted the coil wires and wired the cam/crank angle together. found here:
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1gcasin2g95-96M2.htm
I switched the two blue wires like it said.

Moving on - I'm priming the motor, it cranked over before, manually and with the starter fine. I primed everything, then forced on the fuel pump with DSMLink. everything is fine, set the FPR, no leaks. all good. So I go to fire her up, and it cranks, cranks, fires sputters, dies... cranked again and BANG! Motor stops, whole car shakes and won't turn over anymore, in either direction, with the starter or manually.

Problems.
Engine will not crank, with starter or manually.
Why?

Checked:
Starter is not jammed... pulled it off.
Plugs are fine.
oil feed is fine.
has never run before
pistons are in the right position 4 & 1 down 2 & 3 up.

Maybe a broken rod, crank, cam, something? any ideas much appreciated. Its a JDM 6 bolt that was crated over here. all seals have been replaced, balance shaft eliminator, super clean, no signs of wear, timed correctly.

I don't think firing it once would cause something to break internally, and even if it was 180 out, it should have made enough power to break something either, right? Thanks in advance.

 

[gsxtacy]

Pull the upper timing cover, check cam timing marks. Double check the lower timing marks.

Pull plugs and look at them. Look in the cylinders.

Did it actually start to fire up? Check anything that turns when the engine is turned over. If it was primed it shouldn't be HARD seized anywhere.

I don't know, I can not see your car/work to critique it.

Hope its something easy/non-damaging, post up and give us more info.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

plugs and pistons are fine. timing marks look dead on. It will not turn over. it shouldn't be seized because it would have to get really hot with no oil to be seized... right? it started to fire, then died. i got it to almost start once.

thanks for the reply and the hope... i hope it's something stupid too that i'm just over looking. I'm @ purdue in west lafayette, indiana.. if anyone has time this sunday, 5/7 and lives with in a hour or 2 of me that would be willing to help, PM me or email... I could use any support possible. thanks again.

 

[Red97Eclipseboy]

I'm assuming you swapped your plug wires? 1 with 2 and 3 with 4? When we did my swap, that was the reason mine wouldn't stay running.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

I'm assuming you swapped your plug wires? 1 with 2 and 3 with 4? When we did my swap, that was the reason mine wouldn't stay running.

yeah, but it's not a matter of plugs right now, it's the motor will NOT move.. at all in either direction. not with the starter or by hand. I'm going to pop the valve cover tomorrow, and the oil pan if i don't see anything there. Keep the replies commin' thanks guys.

 

[dave99gst]

If the motor wont move -- SOMTHING has to be stopping it
I wouldnt attempt to start it with the starter untill you figure it out.
Are you sure the pistions didnt kiss the valves?

 

[ddavisaf]

Did you do any bottom end work to the car? Or did you just drop it in the vehicle when you got it?
I would be tearing it apart again if it were me. Drop the oil pan and inspect all the rod bearings, main bearings, and thrust bearing.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Yeah something is definitely stopping it. i have finals all this week so when i get a chance the first things comming off are the oil pan and the valve cover... if i don't see anything then, it's time pull the motor again.

I didn't drop it in right away, i cleaned the hell out of it and replaced all seals, then after careful inspection of every component, i put it in the car. it turned over fine before and everything looked great before this happened. I just don't understand.

Dave - I don't think the pistons hit the valves... i didn't see anything in the spark plug holes leading to that. I'll do what I can... Keep the ideas coming. thanks guys.

 

[GVR4592]

Did you remove the timing covers or did you just look at the cam gears? I would pull the valve cover and make sure everything looks ok.

 

[GTM]

Yeah something is definitely stopping it. i have finals all this week so when i get a chance the first things comming off are the oil pan and the valve cover... if i don't see anything then, it's time pull the motor again.

I didn't drop it in right away, i cleaned the hell out of it and replaced all seals, then after careful inspection of every component, i put it in the car. it turned over fine before and everything looked great before this happened. I just don't understand.

Dave - I don't think the pistons hit the valves... i didn't see anything in the spark plug holes leading to that. I'll do what I can... Keep the ideas coming. thanks guys.

Oh dear this is not good. I wouldn't worry about the oil pan since you had it cranking and trying to fire. My guess is the timing was off, caused a misfire while the piston was coming up and threw the crank backwards while cams were going forward thus jumping valve time.

Remove the spark plugs examine which pistons are up, remove the cam followers from from the pistons which are down even if they are on the lift of the cam you can use a 14-17mm open end wrench and pry up and to the side.

Look at the timing mark, look at the intake cam, too much advance on the intake will foul intake valves and too much retard on the exhaust will foul exhaust valves. If you can isolate which cam has jumped you can then remove the cam bearing caps a little at a time and pry the cam upwards. Only loosen the cap closest to the belt. Remove the remaining cam followers that could not be removed. Reinstall the caps but no need to torque them. Repeat on the other cam if necessary, the engine should be free to turn and you cannot possibly bend any (more) valves. If #1 piston and valves are fouled look at the lobes and see which way you need to rotate without doing further damage.

Look at the spring hat heights they should all be the same, you can use a soft plastic hammer and give each a smack they should have a decided clap sound unless they are bent. You can do a compression check but with the valves closed you will pump around 25-50psi for it has to draw air past the rings. You can now also check the timing.

You should be able to do this in 1/2 hour so you won't have wasted a lot of time. There is a remote possibility of having fouled a balance shaft but my arguement against this is the attempts to fire suggesting at least ign timing was possibly 180 degrees off. You can reset the cam timing with the cam followers out even if it was a balance shaft problem. By setting all the pistons level all the cam followers can be installed without ever hitting a piston. I have straightened slightly bent valves and lapped them in place without removing the head but it is time consuming.

Keep us posted on what you find.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Thanks for the replys. I'll get on it ASAP.

But why would bending a valve stop the crank from moving? looking through the spark plug holes the 2 & 3 are up and 1 & 4 are down, as i said previously... I can belive the timing would be off, I know I timed the outside of the motor perfectally. every timing mark lines up. I don't see what's stopping the motor from turning over.

 

[playitlouddsm]

If the valve or valves are pushing down on the top of the piston, you won't be able to move the crank. Happened to me when i was doing a belt job and didn't reset the cams in the right position.
-Nick

 

[andytalon]

May sound really stupid but, I did somthing just like this. Make sure you car is not in gear or stuck in gear. Just take a look you never know! just make sure 100% it isn't, may have done your shifter cables the wrong way, not sure if it is possible, but just look.

 

[GTM]

Thanks for the replys. I'll get on it ASAP.

But why would bending a valve stop the crank from moving? looking through the spark plug holes the 2 & 3 are up and 1 & 4 are down, as i said previously... I can belive the timing would be off, I know I timed the outside of the motor perfectally. every timing mark lines up. I don't see what's stopping the motor from turning over.

None are so blind as those who "do not read", sorry I usually do better than that.

It is possible that you then miswired the coil packs if there is no chance you had the valve and ign timining dead on? The clue that suggests this may have happened is in the "sputtering" and then "bang". Lean fuel mixture will cause a backfire into the intake manifold but this rarely happens on starting. We can only guess from your descriptions what may have occured to set this ugly chain of events off. You can read dozens upon dozens of threads where this has happened.

If you removed the head complete with cams and followers perhaps you noticed some of the valves were protruding beyond the plane of the head gasket. Though the pistons are dished and have eyebrow valve pockets for the valves it's not enough when the valve is at max lift. Usually if it only jumps one tooth it won't cause a problem with this but if it gets to five it's usually history.

There is another more remote possibility for this to have happened. If you did not prime the oil system until oil came from the hydraulic lash adjusters, they can collapse. This will allow enough clearance that the followers can tilt sideways and then jam under the lobe to give additional lift which then will foul valves and pistons earlier in the crank rotation cycle.

Because the valves are inclined to the piston travel they will bend the stem which now cannot slide into the guide, oil pressure builds, lash adjusters extend and the next time the valve opens even further. Again there are a plethora of pictures where they have holed pistons and destroyed heads when the engine was running at high rpm. Cranking alone will bend valves, whether some guides are damaged will only be determined when you pull it apart.

I cannot say with 100% certainty this has happened but it would make the most sense for the information given. The fact you do have 2 pistons up near TDC is just another clue, until you can remove the cam followers especially on the exhaust will you be able to rotate the engine some degrees CCW. You can then remove the intakes and safely rotate the engine through 1 complete cycle when all are removed.

................

Here, I've just thought of a definitive test. Put a flat blade screwdriver at the cam follower and the cam lobe, try to pry the valve further open. The tool will try to slip out because of the ramp but if you get a good purchase and it's fouled it will not move. Try another cylr or valve so you get some sense of the force needed to make them move. A strong gasket scraper may work better just make sure there are no nicks which could scratch the parts. This will only take a couple of minutes once the valve cover is off.

At least you will know what you are up against and can get back to your finals with some peace of mind. Good luck in that, remember school is your first priority.

BTW _andytalon_, the solution for your problem would have been to have pushed in on the clutch and the gearbox whether in gear or jammed would not have mattered.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Thanks for the info. I think I might not be explaining things well though. So here is to the best of my knowledge:

I did not split the motor when I got it. The head and block were not touch other then the outter covers. All new seals were installed as well as new belts, timed, and re-assembled on the outside.

The motor was timed correctly before dropped in. the wiring is correct to the best of my knowledge. I did it all myself. It should be in time.

Pistons 2 & 3 are up 1 & 4 are down.
It turned over manually and with the crank prior to this episode.
I primed the motor for several minutes/many cranks with the starter and no fuel was added. Fluid was not leaking and covered the cylinder head. I could see fresh oil through the oil cap.
Fuel was then primed with DSMlink. No leaks, base pressure set. Then the motor was cranked to start.
It cranked fine, and then tried to fire, then a bang, the entire car shook, and the motor refused to turn over again. When I tried to start it again it blew the main fuse (200amp located in the rear, I relocated the battery).
I took the starter off and it still would not crank in either direction.
I pulled the valve cover and everything "looks" normal - I didn't pry on anything, visual inspection looked ok.

I hope that clears anything up. If the outside w/ cams is all timed correctly I don't see how I could bend a valve, causing the motor to halt. It doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I’m an idiot, but everything should be aligned. I don't think the motor could have broken a rod or crank because it wasn't making enough power on initial start to do something that drastic. Something is physically holding the motor from turning over. That is what I do not know.

Thanks again for all the replies. One more final tonight, hard one tomorrow, and I’ll probably mess around with it tomorrow night and Thursday. Thanks again. This sucks. I hope I don't have to put a cup out labeled "Scott needs a new motor fund, donate here" - I was hoping to save that for when I need my tranny after I'm making the power this DSM is capable of.

 

[GTM]

Thanks for the info. I think I might not be explaining things well though. So here is to the best of my knowledge:
...

I wish there were something in this post that would change my mind or give some more wiggle room.

I will mention that something like a nut or a bolt could have gone into #2 or #3 for that will do a similar lockup.

Did you ever do a compression check before attempting to start?? Engines that have sat for some time will get rust on the seats and valves. Until it's started and run for a minute this rust will hold valves slightly open. Perhaps in this case you had everything properly timed and then it fired, blew a spark back into the intake, which ignited some collected fuel and rotated the crank backwards. I am familiar with this condition so this may be the real answer.

What sort of guarantee do you have with this engine? Did it have spark plugs or something to keep things from being thrown in the cylrs before you got it? If/when you pull the head inspect the valves for rust or a foreign object in the cylr. If you have not done so, contact the seller and put them on notice that _THEIR_ engine is bad. Who knows maybe you will get any needed parts for free and you will just be out the labor and pain they have caused. Take pictures, lots of pictures if you have not done so which may give you a place to hang your hat.

I can only guess at these things, I'm not there but they are well qualified if you look at my profile. Maybe you should make that call before you attempt levering the valves open so they can't say you abused something and caused the problem.

Almost forgot, the cams could be bent or even worse broken, this does happen but we can get into that later.

Good luck on your final.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Thanks for your help. It's much appreciated. I'm looking into every possible thing you've said. Thanks for the luck on the finals too.. thank God their almost over. Worst case scenario I'm going to pull the motor again sunday. I've simplfied everything so much it should take long to do that.

I didn't do a compression check. I should have.. I didn't have the equipment to. everything looked fine, and I just assumed since i could turn the motor over by hand, everything was timed, and the starter turned it over just fine, everything was ok. I guess not. that's my luck though.

thanks again, I'll get on it asap.

 

[Turbo Shogun]

Thanks for the luck on the finals too.. thank God their almost over.

I hear ya on that one. One more week for me. Maybe then I can start working on my car again.

Hopefully you don't have as much bad luck as I had ... When my motor wouldn't crank over, I found out it completely chewed up a valve (literally). The broken pieces were preventing the #1 cyl. from getting up to TDC.

I can still hear the sound of the catastrophe happen in my sleep (a heart-wrenching *bang*). Or maybe that's the Redbull making me delirious.

 

[bushy]

When I tried to start it again it blew the main fuse (200amp located in the rear, I relocated the battery).

I'm just curious what would cause this fuse to blow?

Would it be becuase the load on the starter but its not turning?

 

[95GSXBLUR]

I'm just curious what would cause this fuse to blow?

Would it be becuase the load on the starter but its not turning?

that's exactly what happened. it was too much pull on it without moving. BANG. there it goes.

I'm going to pull the motor on sunday and seperate the head and block. last final is tonight. The redbull makes me delirious too dude. hahaha.

this sucks though.

 

[wolf20043]

Probalbly a very stupid question, but are you still using the 6 bolt front case, and if so, did you use the crank timing marks on it? The 7 bolt and 6 bolt have the crank timing in different spots. Just a thought.
Mike

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Probalbly a very stupid question, but are you still using the 6 bolt front case, and if so, did you use the crank timing marks on it? The 7 bolt and 6 bolt have the crank timing in different spots. Just a thought.
Mike

I'm using the 6 blot case. all timed up that way. thanks for the post though.

 

[wolf20043]

In all of the swaps I have done, I have only had 2 things cause the scenerio you have. The first happened from the valves breaking and fell into the cylinder. The second time a rod broke and jammed up the crank so it would not go either way. If there is nothing visibly outside catching, you are deff. going to have to look internally.
Mike

 

[GTM]

that's exactly what happened. it was too much pull on it without moving. BANG. there it goes.

I'm going to pull the motor on sunday and seperate the head and block. last final is tonight.
...

this sucks though.

I'm not clear on why your plan is to pull the "motor"? Ahem... engine! I would hope that you exercise due diligence in diagnosing the problem before electing to pulling the engine. Bending valves frequently does not require removing the engine to make repairs for it's more common to remove the head and make those repairs. While you may have seen pictures of significant piston damage these will have occurred when the engine was running and had significant momentum unlike that of the starter motor.

Consider that the starter motor develops 1-2.5hp and has a lot more torque than you can develop even with a 2' breaker bar. I'm guessing that it bent at least 1 valve that was closing too late (exhaust), bent this then got past, came to an intake opening too soon and got stuck close to TDC. This is why I'm advocating releasing the cam bearing caps to allow the valves to close even a little and the engine can then be rotated maybe 90 degrees or more. If you want/need I can attach pictures of my son's engine which suffered from a set of bent valves, damaged guides and dings on the pistons. The tops of the pistons were cleaned, dings were peened smooth and needed no further attention.

Noises/sounds are so hard to define yet I have difficulty thinking that unless someone had been into the bottom end and failed to install a rod bolt correctly that anything would have let go with no warning. I think you indicated you had cranked for oil pressure which would be a good indicator that rods and mains were tight. I've seen my share of broken rods and holes in crankcases and would be extremely unusual unless someone forgot to torque rod bolts.

Did you ever contact the seller? Were you told you had to go through the bottom end or was it sold as a running engine that you just needed to move some parts for your application?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Thanks for all the help - here's some updated information.

I pulled the motor, seperated the block and head.
The oil pump is seized or jammed. it will not turn by hand and will barley move with a wrench. The pistons, rods, crank, bearings, etc have absolutly no damage. the head also looks very good, no damage to valves or anything. I'm going to clean everything up, replace the oil pump and head gasket, and try again. I'm going to check firing order and and other electrical things i can think of and try again.

let me know if you have any ideas on what i should do/clean/perform etc before i drop it back in for attempt 2. Thanks again guys!