420a boost setup plans help please!:D

[420NottheEngine]

I would move my forum to the proper place bur am a probationary member so i apologize for that. Also i understand some of these issues have threads regarding them but they dont have my specific questions answered in thpse threads.
So ive done a crap load of research on forced induction but never actually done anything hands on. So with that being said here are my plans for the future.
Im a 1999 420a. If your gunna hate go onto another thread. My hope for this is some thoughtful insight into my goals, things that might help me like what i may be doing wrong. Not a questioning of why my goals are what they are.
Anyways. Im planning on running 6 to 8 psi just because the automatic is a 4 a speed and the 99 gear ratios are a bit sluggish in the lower rpm range.
Im planning on running a t3/t4 (not sure what kind yet open to suggestions.) Im imagining ill get the manifold, turbo, wastegate and intercooler in a kit. If thats a bad idea let me know. Im more than aware ebay is shawnty if your looking for big boost but im trying a low boost application so i dont have to use a megasquirt setup quite yet, atleast not untill i build the lower end up. That being said, i am confident my low boost application will not blow up my engine like most 4g63 enthusiasts would like to believe. Back to the setup.
I was thinking a 6:1 fuel management unit. Reason being, the standtard rail pressure for 420a is 43 lbs. If i want 6 to 8 the ratio of fuel added back into the rail would be between 36 to 42 extra psi in the rail, making the total rail pressure 43 + 42 = 85. I dont know what the maximum rail pesssure is so if anyone knows PLEASE LET ME KNOW. most japanese 4 bangers its around 120 max psi so i assume im goos but not sure.
Ill be running a innovate mtxl wideband from a bung in the exhaust to a guage pod, this perticular wideband also has a setup to go into the narrowband input in the ecu, which tells it .9 to 5 volts or whatever the narrowband input is. along with that, a boost pressure guage, (what brand????) And oil psi guage.
I have an extra pan to drill my return and intake oil lines for the turbo. Any recomendation on a good oil line setup?
I was thinking a wahlbro 255 lph fuel pump but would that be too much fuel? And my last concern would be am i good to run the stock 190 injectors? I figure yes but maybe it would be better to get a bigger injector and have it work less hard? I am not going to run missing link because people who do use it experence the mechanical design of the link not actuation at the proper point and due to this they run extremely rich.
And how do you low boost fellas measure how much fuel to add for each lb of boost using a fuel management unit?? Like how do you know how much the engine is going to want per lb? I know 12:1 would be too high of fuel pressure added per pound. But would 6:1 be too low?

My last concern is, when i slam down on the gas now, sure the car knows to shift. But what happens when boost is introduced? Clearly i will go over redline. But, will the shift be horribly if i stay on the gas, due to positive manifold pressure? or will the ecu adjust fuel down to where the proper range is before engaging the gear? I could see both things happening. Thoughts? Am i missing anything?

 

[Maxthepersonz]

Somewhat confused by some of your questions but I'll try to help,

First off your fuel is going to be controlled by your FPR/injectors(and obviously ECU), so no a Walbro 255 won't be to much fuel because it wont be running full blast the entire time, it's what I would recommend and what almost everyone goes to for a first upgrade fuel pump.

Second there's no way the 190cc injectors will push nearly enough fuel. Stock turbo cars come with 450cc (depending on year).. I would go with double the injector size minimum for any sort of boost. There's a reason the Honda guys run our injectors when they boost their cars, even on 6psi

Third would be eBay, I wouldn't buy anything but name brand parts and even that can be shady sometimes. Not everything from eBay is junk though, for your application a intercooler and piping would be fine to go the eBay route with, maybe even a cast manifold. I'd recommend DSM flange so you could use a stock Turbo and make it extra cheap. eBay turbos don't last and will definitely explode even on 6psi, some have good luck but don't waste your time.

Fourth would be if you're planning on boosting anything you need a fuel management system, if you can't afford it save.. or don't do it. I'd say 90% of the forum is running DSM link, the fastest guys Haltech, and some run the AEM as well. 420a applications I've typically seen megasquirt from what I recall. With your last comment about hitting the gas pedal with a turbo your ECU is going to be freaked out, it never was supposed to see boost, and it will not add fuel correctly by itself. Your car will see 6-8psi by probably 3000rpms or less, no the car won't go past redline because it has a rev limiter, but most likely 8psi+redline on a 420a and stock ECU is going to explode without tuning.

Also, don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure the 420a auto trans is extremely weak. 8psi might even cook it after some beating but I'm not 100%.

Definitely trying to be helpful here but there's truth behind why the 4g crowd hates on the 420a, by the time you get it done you'll be at $1000 easily in parts, before tuning or installing anything and this is hoping all goes as planned. Save that money+sell the 420a car, save the headache of all of this, have something faster, STOCK AND RELIABLE, running more boost (8-12ish), lower compression ratio for the boost, and something that has proven to take the boost over 300k miles with proper maintenance. I've seen some pretty nice turbo DSMs acquired for under $2500. But I also know some 420 guys are way to attached to their cars to let go and if that's you keep er!

 

[420NottheEngine]

Thank you for the quick reply and good information.
Im a bit confused as to why the ecu would be freaked out, as the 6:1 fuel management unit would increase fuel pressure in the rails without the ecu having to control anything? Or atleast thats what i was under the impression of. And i was planning on running stock ecu still because the wideband i plan to get will trick the ecu into seeing it basically in its language, (voltage) depending on the afr on the guage, and that controls the fuel settings. Or would i run into some other problem?
One i was thinking would occur is, what exactly happens when the intake manifold starts to go over 0? From my understanding the 6:1 fmu will detect the positive pressure and thus add the needed fuel for the boost to not run lean. Assuming i get some better dsm injectors

And one more curiousity probably a stupid question but why would i be at 8 psi by 3k if i have a wastegate set propely to my application? Is it because i have a higher compewssion engine than most turbos do? Wont it stay at the required boost or do i not quite understand the way a wastegate works?
If any questions are stupid i apologize but i have seen this done a few times and i believe as long as you watch your boost and your fuel ratios you can have an engine stay reliable. So im just trying to gain all the info i can and this site has always been helpful you guys are awesome.
Again thanks for the reply and keep the info comin sorry if i make you guys facepalm a couple times. Lol

 

[420NottheEngine]

Oh sorry one more thing will the stock fpr be worthy enough to push that much fuel?

 

[dsmcrzy]

Have you read through the 2gnt wiki page? There is a great few articles that go after exactly what you want to do:
http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=Project_420a_Sleeper

The 420a map sensor can’t read positive manifold pressure. That’s why the ECU will freak out and will cut the signal to fire the injectors.

The 8psi by 3k is simply because it doesn’t take much to get to 8psi.

I don’t believe the stock fpr will be up to the task, but check out the linked articles. He goes through this along with injectors.

I was personally never a fan of the FMU route. I also wanted to build my 420a the ‘right way’ with a built block and megasquirt. Like Max pointed out it wasn’t cheap vs how capable a stock 4g63 is.

Take a look here at injector capability vs line pressure:
http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/faqs/#14

 

[420NottheEngine]

But what im not understanding is what does the ecu "freaking out" entail? Do the readings for the map just stay at full throttle? Because that's essentially fine for a low boost application with an fmu. Will the car just lean itself out? And if that is the case then what keeps me from soing my plans and just putting a missing link in? Ive heard a 1996 420a eclipse ecu will apparently hold positive manifold pressure. And or boost. So what im not understanding is in 1995 the fpr is not able to be worked around, but in 1996 the ecu was reprogrammed to fix a few bugs apparently, and with those changes came the ability for the map to hold positive readings As mrphukyou on youtube has proven and explained to me. But he says that the 1998 to 1999s ecus are interchangable with eachother, but cannot go backwards compaitible. So essentially i cannot put a 96 ecu into a 99. My new question is why? What would the differences be in the programming? What exactly stops the ecu from working in a 1999? AND why would they have fuel maps on the 96 that support boost but then take it away the next 2 years? I know chrystler does stupid shit but not that stupid. Im asking a lot but can someone please try and find this information? Or explain to me what im not understanding about the 420a being able to be boosted in 1996 but not 3 years later? Am i the only one that doesnt get it?

 

[420NottheEngine]

Ive also found people who claim to be boosted and rebuilt using the stock ecu on a 1999. So i seriously just need a straightforward answer as the whether im pucked and should buy a 96 or if theres hope for me yet?

 

[dustyboner]

So i seriously just need a straightforward answer as the whether im pucked and should buy a 96 or if theres hope for me yet?

ur Fuct buy a 96 GST or GSX


it will suck ass with a FMU and you will probably grenade your motor.
the stock injectors should be 223 or 230cc or right around there.

like everyone says, for a what you pay for a decent turbo setup (not a ebay turbo $hit), you can just buy a GST or GSX.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[420NottheEngine]

I dont mean to be hostile but im not looking for suggestions on my next car. Your comment added no helpful information. A mans money and the things he chooses to spend it on is his decision. Im doing it for the sole reason that it IS going to be hard. It will be a long process to the finish but unlike some people i welcome that. Its a lot better than being like every other eclipse owner out there. "I put a turbo on my stock engine and it can hold 20 lbs because 4gsixty blah blah blah" (cool bruh) ... doesnt sound like much a challenge to me. I want to rebuild the engine. Want to do the nitty and gritty and the so expensive i could buy another car with it. I said all of this in the OP and i was hoping not to have mention of a gst. And i wouldnt need a 96 gst since those can obviously be boosted all years. I was refering to buying a 96 420a because the ecus can actually handle positive manifold pressure without a missing link. I dont mean to be rude but this post was for people that have knowledge with the 420a. Not "ur gunna grenade ur engine bro" kind of knowledge. Only kind of people that "grenade their builds from an fmu" as you put it are idiots who dont know what their doing and dont understand the modification. Its not like every vortec makes every diy turbo set up blow. An fmu is good for low boost appications in a car where a map sensor cannot read manifold pressure and whala thats what the 420a is. So its nice u gst folks are running around with a bunch of tune options. But what you guys want isnt what i want. Thanks for the 2 cents.
And ive found a way around it so thanks for the pessamistic comment but tuners you guys let me down this time. Tired of the 420a discrimination man..

 

[motomattx]

I know a guy with a nicley setup 420a and it has a 20g on it and runs great, (started off with the Hahnracecraft kit) it can definately be done and its not that big of a deal, you can even install the SRT-4 engine if you want to go more agressive. I have seen Dsmlink on at least one 420a at the shootout, or even the black box ecu on a 420a if you want to do the wiring, it does work. Hahnracecraft sells a nice kit for the 420a to turbo it, you can even start with that if you dont want alot of hassle.

 

[dsmcrzy]

If you read the link I gave you, you would have your answer.

The 1995 ecu is the only one that does not need a missing link or fuel cut defender. 96-99 all need a missing link or fuel cut defender. The difference between the 2 is the 95 is obd 1 where the others are obd 2 compliant.

Also the pin outs are different on the 96-99 ecus. Not sure why that is, but that’s the only difference between them.

 

[dsmcrzy]

Also by ecu freaking out. I mean it will cut fuel. Hence the fuel cut defender.

 

[dustyboner]

I dont mean to be hostile but im not looking for suggestions on my next car. Your comment added no helpful information. A mans money and the things he chooses to spend it on is his decision. Im doing it for the sole reason that it IS going to be hard. It will be a long process to the finish but unlike some people i welcome that. Its a lot better than being like every other eclipse owner out there. "I put a turbo on my stock engine and it can hold 20 lbs because 4gsixty blah blah blah" (cool bruh) ... doesnt sound like much a challenge to me. I want to rebuild the engine. Want to do the nitty and gritty and the so expensive i could buy another car with it. I said all of this in the OP and i was hoping not to have mention of a gst. And i wouldnt need a 96 gst since those can obviously be boosted all years. I was refering to buying a 96 420a because the ecus can actually handle positive manifold pressure without a missing link. I dont mean to be rude but this post was for people that have knowledge with the 420a. Not "ur gunna grenade ur engine bro" kind of knowledge. Only kind of people that "grenade their builds from an fmu" as you put it are idiots who dont know what their doing and dont understand the modification. Its not like every vortec makes every diy turbo set up blow. An fmu is good for low boost appications in a car where a map sensor cannot read manifold pressure and whala thats what the 420a is. So its nice u gst folks are running around with a bunch of tune options. But what you guys want isnt what i want. Thanks for the 2 cents.
And ive found a way around it so thanks for the pessamistic comment but tuners you guys let me down this time. Tired of the 420a discrimination man..

i have had a few GSTs and currently own RS that i had turboed. i know from experience. putting a turbo on a 420a isn't hard but its hella expesnsive to do it right.
i know what im talking about.
Oh and the injectors are not 190cc.

Bosch part # 0 280 150 965
Oem part # 4669011
230cc @ 3 bar (42.5 psi)