2G Transmission First and Second Gear Problems

[paulb1320]

I bought my car with a blown clutch, so after buying it I replaced the clutch. When I first drove it the car would not go into first gear from a standstill. I replaced the poppet balls and springs and I could get it into gear about 1/3 of the time from a standstill (I have to slam it in though) but even if I got it in gear it would still pop out every once and awhile.

Now recently I have been using second gear from a standstill and I am having the same problems that I have with first, only less frequent (I can get second gear about 80% of the time).

I searched around and found out that a bad bearing on the bellhousing side of the intermediate shaft is to blame for my troubles in first gear. Would this also effect second gear? I have found numerous threads with either of these symptoms but none with it popping out of first and second gear.

I am planning on changing the bearing, 1st gear, and the second gear synchro (it grinds a little when I shift into second) Is there anything else I should change to fix my second gear problems

Thanks in advance.

 

[91goldgsx]

does it go into all other gears fine or do you have trouble going into other gears as well

 

[paulb1320]

It goes into all other gears just fine.

I ordered the bearing, the syncro for 2nd gear, and the 1/2 shift fork, I'll see if installing these will help.

 

[luv2rallye]

Make sure you set the shaft pre-loads exactly as the manual states (using solder method) or you will still have the same problem.

 

[paulb1320]

Kind of a dumb questions but what manual is that? Haynes, Chiltons?
Sorry I am a total newb

 

[luv2rallye]

I wouldn't trust Haynes or Chiltons with anything like this (if they even have it).
Download the "2gb ('97-'99) dsm engine, chassis, body service manual" for free located here: Index of /dsmbooks
Then look at p. 22B-30 Spacers Selection for setting correct preloads and end play.

 

[paulb1320]

I'll be sure to follow it to the letter.

Thanks

 

[luv2rallye]

Also read these for important info:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/290238-popping-out-4th-gear.html#post151566175
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...build-dsm-fwd-transmission.html#post151757065
WC Engineering : 5th Gear Pop-Out

and an excellent complete rebuild article:
Dre

 

[paulb1320]

Ok, So I read the section in the manual about the rebuild as well as the article by dre, in Dre's Rebuild, he says

"some dont even bother. I've talked to a few top guys, and all of them told me they dont shim the tranny. I dont know why they dont bother, but other's i've talked to said it will be the difference from a good shifting tranny, to a GREAT shifting tranny. All up to you. "

Could I get away with not shimming the tranny? I read the manual several times about shimming and I am pretty confused about the process.

 

[luv2rallye]

The ones that don't shim it don't because it takes a LOT of extra time and effort to do so which they are not willing to do. I myself have gone around and asked 5 local tranny shops and none of them will do it. Think of the effort: disassemble tranny, remove all shaft shims, place solder under each shaft's race (between race and housing where shim was), assemble tranny and torque housing bolts, disassemble tranny, measure solder thickness, redo this entire process 2 more times to make sure you get consistent readings (some solder expands or you didn't do it right), well lets see - it's now been at least an hour, compute what new shims should be, order new shims from Mitsubishi or reliable tranny shop like Sheps, DRE, or Jacks (since no local tranny shop carries them), wait a week to get them, install new shims and put tranny together with solder again, redo entire measurement process again. Well it's now been a week. What tranny shop is going to do that? They won't do it even if they had the proper shims (which they couldn't possibly have since there's around 200 shim sizes for every tranny on the planet). But if it was off some rediculous amount (like 1/4" play) they will just put in whatever shim they have even though it's not the proper thickness just to get by, so it will work for a while (I asked the local shops about this and that's the what they told me - except for the get by for a while part of course). This is for local shops. I believe Sheps, DRE, and Jacks would do it right since they have all the shims and have an internet reputation to maintain or they'd go out of business. Local shops don't care if you never come back cause there's always thousands of other trannys waiting to be fixed. And anyone can make a tranny work for at least the 1 year warranty (mine went out in 14 months after I had a local shop do it which is why I then learned how to do it myself and did).

So you don't have to do it but "it will be the difference from a good shifting tranny, to a GREAT shifting tranny" and will make it last longer before it acts up again. My take is if you already have the tranny out why wouldn't you do it? It is a big job and costly to have to take it out again 1-60 months from now and then have to do it or replace it.

 

[paulb1320]

Thanks for the quick response. I really appreciate it. I am going to shim the tranny.

 

[luv2rallye]

I am going to shim the tranny.

Then take your time and do it right so you won't have to pull the tranny again. I took my time doing it 2 years ago and it still shifts like butter. The shims (called spacers by Mitsubishi) are listed starting on page 22B-7. I ordered mine (factory ones) from https://www.mitsubishiparts.com/oe_parts_catalog.html (also at Mitsubishi Parts | OEM Mitsubishi Parts | Genuine Mitsubishi Parts).
You have a lot of tranny experts here to help you (and I'm not even one of them - before doing my tranny I had never had one apart before. I learned it all from the dre rebuild article and reading the factory manual).
Good Luck.

 

[paulb1320]

I have been on car forums for quite a while (first dsm forum however) and you are hands down the most helpful person I have encountered.

Thank You

 

[luv2rallye]

Thanks. Just for that (tee hee) I'll offer you 3 more tips.

Next time you order from Mitsubishi also get the "select lever shoe". It's only $1.98 at MitsubishiParts.com.
A source of side to side shifter play is the select lever shoe (MD712919) which rides in the ring of the control shaft (the shift levers on the outside of the tranny where the shifter cables attach to). It wears down causing excessive shifter play. To give you something to compare your old one to, a new one is 0.468" thick (the ring slot is 0.475").
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=111966&d=1280113943

Also consider replacing the shift forks. 3rd-4th fork usually wears down if you have the aluminum factory one. Read this post and view images here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/290238-popping-out-4th-gear.html#post151566175.

And file the tips to a point of the reverse idler gear teeth so it will go into reverse easier (not filed sharp enough in first pic).

 

[paulb1320]

Well something came up and I had to move. So I didn't have time to fix my tranny instead I just replaced it with a used one.

 

[xcyanide87x]

noob question whats a syncro im have a problem with my car grinding third gear

 

[luv2rallye]

noob question whats a syncro im have a problem with my car grinding third gear

A syncro is a special ring that slows (via its beveled inside radius) the speed of one internal tranny shaft/gear to match the speed of the other shaft/gear that is being shifted into. It does this when the shifter is at the beginning of the shift (just out of neutral). It also has special teeth that help guide the syncronizer sleeve (aka a slider) to line up and slide easily onto the gear's syncronizer dog teeth (aka engagement teeth) thereby coupling the gear to the syncronizer hub (hub is splined onto the tranny's internal shaft). Until the hub is rotating the same speed as the gear, the sync ring blocks this coupling (ie. the gear shift) thus the sync ring is aka a blocking ring.

To test your syncros have the tranny in neutral, motor running and without pushing in on the clutch, start moving the shifter toward (but not into) a gear. The syncro cones (on inside of sync ring) should be trying to slow down the geartrain, thus it will slow down the motor a bit. If the syncro is excessively worn you'll get grinding (since the speeds won't match) instead of motor slowing. This test can be done in any gear to test syncros.

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[xcyanide87x]

thank you that was an awsome explanation and way to test maybe i wont need a tranny rebuild or if it is the syncro should i just have a rebuild done since it will be opened anyways

 

[luv2rallye]

If its a syncro, and you plan on keeping the car, and you can afford it (or do it yourself if you feel capable and have a press & tools), and the tranny is being opened up anyway, definately consider rebuilding it. Things will only get worse with time and you'll kick yourself for not doing it when it was out/apart. Here's a great article with pictures on how to rebuild a dsm tranny (but keep in mind it's not for anyone mechanically challenged or who doesn't also have the factory service manual [which you can get free] and a press and tools): Dre

 

[robertseber]

i know im bringing back a old post but does any one have a link for the dre rebuild post?

 

[luv2rallye]

http://web.archive.org/web/20100627174759/http://www.twingles.com/ideck/rebuild3/dretranny.htm