180* out or just wrong?

[BlackMount]

quick question.

doing the timing on my 1G 2.0L Turbo DSM, and trying to figure out if I am 180* out or timing is still off..


The timing marks seem to line up all like they should...but the car sounds like a tractor when it starts, and it takes a bit of turning for it to start, and i have to give it gas to stay alive other wise it just dies. I messed with the CAS and the sweet spot (runs the best) for it seems to be in the middle or just barely advanced. (which is good) because before i would have to retard it all the way for my car to run the best. but it still sounds like a tractor.

I'm pretty sure 180 out but want a 2nd opinion and some extra info.

Q1: My cam shafts have 2 timing marks on each of them, one timing mark is short and in between teeth, and the other is long and sits in the middle of the tooth each cam has these....which one of these should line up with which mark?... I'm using the short mark on the Exhaust cam, and the long mark on the intake Cam, is this correct?

Q2: All my timing marks line up, and with the cover on, my timing mark on the accessory crank pulley is at 5* This is where it should be correct

Q3: would you say my timing is wrong, or I'm completely 180 out?

all help is appreciated.

 

[BigBeans]

When the timing marks align, the dowel pins on the cam gears need to be at 12 o clock.

If your timing light is adjusted to -5 and is firing at another time, your timing is off.

 

[BlackMount]

When the timing marks align, the dowel pins on the cam gears need to be at 12 o clock.

I meant to input that detail. they are indeed at 12 o clock

Is it possible to Test being 180* with out taring everything apart again?

 

[BigBeans]

I've seen the term "180 out" used for both ignition and cam timing.

To be clear, what do you think is "180 out"?

To check ignition timing, put a timing light (preferably an adjustable set to -5) on the #1 cylinder and aim it at the cam gears. The timing light should fire when the dowel pins are at 12 o clock and the timing marks are aligned.

 

[haswesley]

As long as the crankshaft pulley is pointing to zero when the cams are lined up and dowels at 12 o'clock, you are not 180 out. "180 out" means your dowels on cam gears are at 12 o'clock when your crank is pointing in the exact opposite position than the timing cover zero degree mark. Also, when your dowels on cam gears are at 12 o'clock, your crankshaft pulley should NOT be at 5 degrees. It should be at zero. This may be your problem. Being 5 degrees before or after TDC means your ignition timing set via CAS. It does NOT mean timing between cams and crankshaft (unless, of course, you have adjustable cam gears). All of your timing marks should align exactly.

 

[BlackMount]

As long as the crankshaft pulley is pointing to zero when the cams are lined up and dowels at 12 o'clock, you are not 180 out. "180 out" means your dowels on cam gears are at 12 o'clock when your crank is pointing in the exact opposite position than the timing cover zero degree mark. Also, when your dowels on cam gears are at 12 o'clock, your crankshaft pulley should NOT be at 5 degrees. It should be at zero. This may be your problem. Being 5 degrees before or after TDC means your ignition timing set via CAS. It does NOT mean timing between cams and crankshaft (unless, of course, you have adjustable cam gears). All of your timing marks should align exactly.

looking at this image, my timing mark on the crank acc pulley lines up in between the 10, and the T on the timing cover (I'm assuming that means 5*?) Where should it be when setting the timing? Just for clarification?

 

[fatness_42]

No the T is TDC. The little mark between the T and the 10 is 5* before TDC which is where you want your ignition timing to be. oops miss read your post. Which timing are you asking about ignition or cam and crank timing?

 

[knochgoon24]

Are you sure you connected the spark plug wires to the correct coils?

 

[Hitmachine101]

Are you sure you connected the spark plug wires to the correct coils?

ha ive done that before and ya the car sounds like a tractor -- so check that out for sure,,,, either way sounds like your real close

ive got a motor that im going to be doing this to soon -- bought if off the guy because he couldnt time it so im in for a real treat it sounds like

good luck

 

[BlackMount]

ha ive done that before and ya the car sounds like a tractor -- so check that out for sure,,,, either way sounds like your real close

ive got a motor that im going to be doing this to soon -- bought if off the guy because he couldnt time it so im in for a real treat it sounds like

good luck

I've checked twice now. I will check again..I have done it several times before too .

I'm asking about timing over all. I just want my baby to run right...and not sound like a tractor!

My cam Timing marks are perfectly aligned when when the crank pulley is at the 5* mark on the timing cover. so it's right? right? I don't have a ignition timing light so I figured if I got it done to where everything else was right and it was drive-able., I'd take it too my buddy's shop

It' still runs like a tractor, I'm going to double check spark plugs, Gap, Spark plug wires, and Coil Pack tomorrow, I'm off work till Monday which is very convenient so lots of time to enjoy a cold beer, and fix the dsm!

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Have you figured anything out with this? I have a friend who has the same problem. We tested the coilpack, wires, everything. Cylinder 2 and 3 will not fire but everything elctrical seems ok. The coilpack is good, wires good, tried new ecu. All the same. It does the exact same thing yours does. His is also a 90 as well. Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[falcon8r]

If you are asking if it is o.k. to be @ -5* tdc while the cams are straight up / aligned? Yes , it is off. The only way in your pic this would look correct is with the timing light flashing @ 5* off. With the engine off, all the marks have to be @ tdc. There is a spec on this site whre you can count teeth on the belt. I have used this method of counting teeth on all timing belt jobs I do. I count & write it down before I bust it apart and it has saved my butt on expensive engines. Me thinks you will have the belt off again. Tres...

 

[BlackMount]

Have you figured anything out with this? I have a friend who has the same problem. We tested the coilpack, wires, everything. Cylinder 2 and 3 will not fire but everything elctrical seems ok. The coilpack is good, wires good, tried new ecu. All the same. It does the exact same thing yours does. His is also a 90 as well. Anyone have any suggestions?

Welll Kinda, I re-timed it, and it runs much better, and I can actually build boost now, and really fast too.

I think something else may be the culprit. I have weak spark on 2\4 Of my plugs and it's the wires because I tried all area's of diagnosing my ignition and it came down the the spark plug wires, So I will be getting new ones of those. I also am going to do a BLT this weekend and Compression test and see what my numbers come too.

But first, Something somewhere is rubbing on my Timing belt and it really Took some meat off of it after about 15 mins of driving it. So I' have discontinued driving it until I put on my Spare....I'm not sure what it is, I checked for bolts in the Timing Cover but didn't have any drop out when I loosed it on the bottom...Any Idea's or things that Often rub on our cars?

 

[fatness_42]

"My cam Timing marks are perfectly aligned when when the crank pulley is at the 5* mark on the timing cover. so it's right? right? I don't have a ignition timing light so I figured if I got it done to where everything else was right and it was drive-able., I'd take it too my buddy's shop"
Your cam crank timing is off if you cams line up with 5*. The cam pins should be at the 12 oclock with the cam timing marks lined up and the crank should be at TDC(the T on the cover) I'm guessing that your missstaken on what you said because if you timing was off by 5* your valves would be bent to shit and your car would run at all.

 

[dsmspoolin]

Have you ever removed your oil pan? If so, and if you didn't put the two short oil pan bolts in the right location they could be rubbing on the inboard side of your timing belt.

 

[snowborder714]

Just to clear up any bad info in here.

When you check the timing marks at the cams, you want to look at the inner two marks and compare them to the valve cover gasket flange 'behind' them. All 4 timing marks on the cams will not line up perfectly.

With the car off, the engine at TDC, and all timing marks lined up, the white mark on the harmonic dampener should line up with the TDC line on the lower timing cover.

With the car started and the timing grounded, at idle with the car warmed up the white mark should line up with the line between the TDC and 10* mark on the lower timing cover which indicates 5*.

If either of these marks are off, something is wrong. One problem I ran into was my harmonic dampener had not separated, but the inside spun (still looked ok unless you looked really close) and caused my base timing to be off (white line was not on the TDC mark) and my ignition timing to be off (white line was way past the 10* mark).

Also make sure your CAS isn't 180* out if you happen to take it off for some reason.

 

[BlackMount]

"My cam Timing marks are perfectly aligned when when the crank pulley is at the 5* mark on the timing cover. so it's right? right? I don't have a ignition timing light so I figured if I got it done to where everything else was right and it was drive-able., I'd take it too my buddy's shop"
Your cam crank timing is off if you cams line up with 5*. The cam pins should be at the 12 oclock with the cam timing marks lined up and the crank should be at TDC(the T on the cover) I'm guessing that your missstaken on what you said because if you timing was off by 5* your valves would be bent to shit and your car would run at all.

You have no Idea what I was saying. but Thanks for the attempt to help.

Have you ever removed your oil pan? If so, and if you didn't put the two short oil pan bolts in the right location they could be rubbing on the inboard side of your timing belt.

I haven't, but doesn't mean the previous owner hasn't I will double check that. but this is the first time any sign of rubbing has appread.

Just to clear up any bad info in here.

When you check the timing marks at the cams, you want to look at the inner two marks and compare them to the valve cover gasket flange 'behind' them. All 4 timing marks on the cams will not line up perfectly.

With the car off, the engine at TDC, and all timing marks lined up, the white mark on the harmonic dampener should line up with the TDC line on the lower timing cover.

With the car started and the timing grounded, at idle with the car warmed up the white mark should line up with the line between the TDC and 10* mark on the lower timing cover which indicates 5*.

If either of these marks are off, something is wrong. One problem I ran into was my harmonic dampener had not separated, but the inside spun (still looked ok unless you looked really close) and caused my base timing to be off (white line was not on the TDC mark) and my ignition timing to be off (white line was way past the 10* mark).

Also make sure your CAS isn't 180* out if you happen to take it off for some reason.

Thanks for all the Clarification, and suggesting my CAS is 180. all tho, I might not pay the best attention to detail, but I can pay enough to make sure that wouldn't happen hah.

 

[turbolover10]

If the cas was 180 out would you still get spark? I'm running into a similar problem and I know the cam's are lined up, dowel pins at 12 and crank pulley at tdc when the cars off. But I am a little confused at how to check the ignition timing, "this is gonna have to be done with a light correct and does the car have to be idleing to check ignition timing? The reason I ask is because I cant get the car to fire, it turns over fine but doesn't seem to be getting spark. I've narrowed it down to the cas, "most likely to be the culprit or something to do with the ignition timing."?? any help would be much appreciated!

 

[rlacasse1]

Yes the car will still fire if the CAS is 180 out. It will just fire at the wrong time on each cylinder and would not run. But it would spark. And Yes you need a timing light to check it.

 

[turbolover10]

Yea something else seems to be wrong, I'm gonna take a few steps back and double check everthing.

 

[BlackMount]

I re-timed the Car Today, every timing mark was PERFECTLY on mark. quickly put the car back together (Kinda) just put the water pump belt + Pulley on then went and test drove it. It ran amazingly well, and would rev all the way up to the red line with no problem...So after driving it around the parking lot a few times, I parked it to but the Alternator belt and Timing cover back on. once back together start it up. It's running like shit again... again driving while under boost it jerks back and forth really hard at about 2700.... I haven't rechecked timing because It's dark but I will tomorrow. IF timing is dead on, I'm going to mess with the CAS some and then, I'm going to try Injectors, and New Spark plug wires, and a Boost leak test.

 

[DSM1G90]

Also make sure your CAS isn't 180* out if you happen to take it off for some reason.

The INT cam will have a little house symbol on the end of it that should be above the grooves at the end of the cam at TDC, and on one tang on the rotating end of the CAS will have a groove that matches up with a dimple on the "O" ring collar.

When these two factors are aligned up, this helps to prevent 180* off timing.

Good luck as always-DSM

 

[BlackMount]

Timing was off a tooth. I fixed it, then adjusted my TPS and CAS. runs much better now... still a little iffy....

and CEL comes on @ Idle once the car warms up. Pulled the codes, It's my MAF. But it's in my harness because I have 2 MAF's and after installing the other, and erasing the code it threw same code again.