17" wheels for road racing.

[Suparata]

We have one guy that wants a set that will go on a 2G so contact me if you too are interested.

 

[Ludachris]

While you're at it Mitch, have your offshore source cast up some revised spindles so all of this becomes moot. With another inch and a half or so inboard, none of this would matter as much.

From DSM.org:

RM Racing Limited
15651 North 83rd Way #2
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 US
Phone: 602-483-2444 FAX: 602-483-2052
E-mail: [email protected] Web: http://www.rmnsx.com/
The original manufacturer of race tuned 2G DSM Stabilizer bars (the ones that actually fit and work). Coming in early 1999, 2G chin spoilers, and Super Spindles which allow nine to ten inch wide wheels on 2G DSMs.​

FYI, the link doesn't work, and I tried doing a Google search and couldn't come up with anything either. This got me thinking though - how outrageous is the idea of coming up with a new spindle/lower control arm design for the 1g? It seems the issue that comes up with wheel spoke clearance for big brake kits is the location of the lower ball joint. So that would mean a redesigned lower control arm and spindle could solve that couldn't it? Just move the ball joint inward slightly? Or would that totally throw off the suspension geometry?

Not to make it sound like an easy fix, as I know there aren't any companies out there that are likely to do this for us but, do you guys think that would be a possible solution? Just thinking out loud here...

 

[jtmcinder]

Moving the lower ball-joint inwards would increase the scrub radius, increasing the stress on the steering system (including the driver). More importantly (for road racing), the larger the scrub radius, the more dangerous the car becomes if the brakes are not exactly matched at all times and the more difficult it is to power out of a corner (assuming the front wheels are powered, as they are on our cars). On the positive side, it would decrease the SAI, which would make your caster more effective. But the negatives out-weigh the latter by a lot. This would be an expensive and, possibly, very hurtful project. Last resort, IMO.

- Jtoby

 

[Jon Lane]

FYI, the link doesn't work, and I tried doing a Google search and couldn't come up with anything either.

I spoke with those guys years ago in the context of a new 2g part, and apparently the "super spindle" project was a redesigned rear spindle (maybe fronts too?) that pushed the upper inside "corner" up and away from the tire enough to clear greater offsets and larger tires -- basically more tire under the car and less need to have rubber poking out of the wheelwells.

They wanted to cast entirely new iron parts. Given how economical offshore castings can be these days, I wondered who might step up and do such a relatively simple mod to the original design. Seems that at least a few hundred could be sold in relatively short order.

I don't recall any talk at that time about doing anything other than just improving the upper profile of the knuckle, the first point of interference when we try to get more tire under the car...

 

[Maximuscr31]

Till I get some more money saved I am running eibach prokit/tokico 5 ways, do you think that is enough height to clear the 17x9?

 

[Maximuscr31]

Till I get some more money saved I am running eibach prokit/tokico 5 ways, do you think that is enough height to clear the 17x9?

I am gonna roll the fenders too, main reason I want to know is if it want I guess I will go ahead and splurge on some coilovers, but I rather not at this point because money is tight

 

[logic]

17x9s with 255/40 tires and a 30mm or less offset should be a good match for a 2g, but you should be prepared for the result: a lot of fender rolling, especially if the car is lowered. (The Prokit setup probably dropped you something like 1.5" or so, right?) Even then, if you're too low, you could still see tire-to-fender contact on hard bumps; consider the surfaces your car sees before putting something large in the wheelwells, and "make room" accordingly.

Also, keep in mind that you'll be looking at a bit of tire protrusion; Martin's setup with 255/40/17s on 17x9+35 wheels is an exceptionally tight fit, but doesn't stick out (much). Going with a slightly more sane 30mm or 27mm offset takes care of that clearance issue nicely, but you'll see up to about a centimeter (about 0.4 inches) of protrusion. If this is a problem for you (or your racing class), you might be looking at needing fender flares or similar bodywork.

(FYI, I'm probably the 2g guy that Mitch is referring to. I'll be running a 17x9 with +27mm offset.)

 

[Suparata]

Guess what wheels this EVO has?
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/lancer_fq400.asp

 

[Greg Collier]

Sweet... I like the black wheels. I couldn't imagine paying $85,000.00 for an EVO!

The air flow with those open spokes must be incredible

 

[underradar92]

Will compatable open end lugnuts be available?

 

[Suparata]

Will compatable open end lugnuts be available?

They carry lug nuts too but I did not ask about them yet.

Just some more info here:
Of the shelf wheels in Pro Race 1 don't have the hub-center sized for a Mitsubishi and they use other lug nuts than the EVO OE like the FQ400 does. The FQ400 wheels are actually the 1.2 in 17x8 and high gloss black (which is not available in the other 1.2 wheels). The 1.2 are the same wheels they use in ETCC (multi-lugs) and BTCC (center lug configuration).

Team Dynamics cannot however sell the Mitsu logo center caps that come on the FQ400 EVO because of legal matters.

 

[Ludachris]

Mitch, can you verify the weight of the Team Dynamics 17x9 wheel?

 

[Suparata]

About 24 in 17x9. I'm working to get the exact weight on our offset.

 

[Ludachris]

24 lbs?!?! Oh man, I thought we were going to be in the 18-19 lb range. That's a full 8 lbs heavier per wheel than my Kosei K1's that are on there right now. Granted, these wheels would be 1.5" wider than my K1's, but that is still a lot heavier than I had originally thought.

What is our offset going to be?

 

[Suparata]

I don't see any K1's being used in any serious road racing competition in Europe.
Everybody needs to understand a few things regarding road racing wheels. They need to be strong enough and light enough to do the job.And they HAVE to accept the biggest brakes possible.

Quote from http://www.teamdynamicsracing.com/pro-race/Pro-race12.htm

"We are proud to declare their position of exclusive wheel supplier to the British Touring Car Championship at just 10.5kg with centre lock fixing and drive pegs."
That's 23.1lbs. And that's light enough for them. Why? Because they are strong enough to do the job and that is more important than weight. That together with the room for brakes and cooling.
"This wheel is now extensively used in ETCC and other motorsport championships throughout the World, with wheels from just 9.0kg with standard PCD fixing!!"
That's 19.8lbs. And that's very close to what we will be running but because of a smaller offset we might be a few pounds heavier. Do I care about a few pounds? Certainly not more than I care about how strong they are.

Bottom line is that a while back I talked to the tech Guru over at TD and weight was one of the main subjects we discussed. He told me that it would be very easy to machine some more of the center of the wheel to make it lighter but that would make it weaker. FWD platform based cars do not have all the room in the world especially in the front. To be able to put the biggest brakes you can on a racing application you need a wheel that is designed with enough room in that critical area. Multi-spoke wheels can be made with thinner spokes that are basically arching quite a bit to allow for brakes. That is why the center of the wheel needs to be stronger therefore heavier.

Look at WRC for example. They are running the same style rims on tarmac and they use 15" brakes under 18" wheels. Why? Because they CAN AND NEED to use the biggest brakes possible. You can bet that those wheels are a lot heavier than a road racing one.

The Enkei F1 for example has the spokes a lot closer to the center so they are a lot straighter than an OZ Superturismo Corsa or Team Dynamic one. Therefore they can be made thinner and the center of the wheel is not as big. That's weight saving but what's the biggest brake you can put in there? I don't think you can put 355x32mm(14"x1.25") on a FWD style car like ours, at least not without going to an extreme on the offset. That's why they are not concerned about how the air escapes from a bigger rotor and made that all around lip that makes the wheels look smaller than 17".

Road racing is a totally different animal than autocross. Street wheels can be made lighter and weaker because if you bend them in a pothole you will not blame the manufacturer but buy some more from them because they are light.

Take a better look at the file I've sent you and you will understand more what I'm talking about.

Our offset will be +27mm.

 

[logic]

24 lbs sounds a bit high; the 17x8s are only in the 17 lbs range...

 

[Ludachris]

Mitch, I understand your argument completely. I'm just wondering if I need the same durability that the cars in the BTCC and ETCC require, especially at the expense of 8 lbs per wheel (32 lbs total). The furthest I plan on going with this car is Time Trials - I won't be running the car in Super Unlimited with Greg. I'm just thinking in terms of what I need for my goals. The Kosei K1-TS comes in 17x9 and weighs in at 16 lbs. I'm not sure if they have an offset that would work, but it's possible. I also don't know if they'd clear the brakes, but I can find out. If the specs worked out right, it would make this a tough decision. Proven road race durability but heavy VS. lightweight and autocross proven.

I'll have to go over and ask some more NASA guys what they think. I wish these things were under 20 lbs, as it would be a no-brainer for me then.

By the way, I didn't receive a file from you lately, did you just send it?

 

[igs]

Magnesium is the way to go if you are serious about road racing.

18x10 inch wheels weigh 14lbs

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[Greg Collier]

Wheels, wheels, wheels Is it all about weight? Weight to horsepower: 8lbs. = 1hp. Depending on what series your running in, weather its a race class of time trials your horsepower to weight ratio determines your class.

In road racing you want durability; something that will take the g-force stress of a 150+ mph power drift, or the constant pounding of an off camber relatively high rumble strip at the apex of a turn that sets you up for a straight. The problem Ive been having with my custom made 13lb. $550.00 per wheel, is the fact that they have to manufacture the center (hub) of the wheel with so much mass that the airflow is totally restricted. Included is the mass of material at that connection to the bell that only gives the micro millimeter clearance for the big brake calipers and rotors. Again with this minimal clearance brake ducting seems to be futile.

So if I go back to the weight to horsepower concept and Im adding 32 pounds of weight evenly distributed at all four corners of the car, my loss is 4hp. I'm gaining unrestricted air flow to my brakes which relives fade, and I'm able to maintain consistent lap times which gives me an edge over my competitor. The added clearance can also incorporate a larger rotor and caliper adding to that edge. Road racers use brakes to slow the car down and gears to speed the car up. Since I've added the StopTechs I've been able to out brake full race Porsches by a good 25 feet...

 

[Suparata]

24 lbs sounds a bit high; the 17x8s are only in the 17 lbs range...

I made a mistake on the wheels weight because the heaviest these wheels can be is 9.5Kg which is just shy of 20lbs and that is on a 4 lugs configuration and minimum offset.
Going to 5 lugs makes the wheel lighter and obviously going to a higher offset takes additional weight off of it.
So I apologize for the misinformation but like I said it wouldn’t have made any difference to me if they would have been 4-5 lbs heavier than that if that’s what it would have taken to have the wheel strong enough. Weight equally distributed on each of the 4 corners of the car the closest possible to the ground is not that bad after all.

At about 19lbs it does however sound a lot better now doesn’t it?

 

[Ludachris]

I made a mistake on the wheels weight because the heaviest these wheels can be is 9.5Kg which is just shy of 20lbs and that is on a 4 lugs configuration and minimum offset.
Going to 5 lugs makes the wheel lighter and obviously going to a higher offset takes additional weight off of it.
So I apologize for the misinformation but like I said it wouldn't have made any difference to me if they would have been 4-5 lbs heavier than that if that's what it would have taken to have the wheel strong enough. Weight equally distributed on each of the 4 corners of the car the closest possible to the ground is not that bad after all.

At about 19lbs it does however sound a lot better now doesn't it?

It does. Maybe I'm just being too anal about weight reduction, but I've worked pretty hard to get the car down to 2900 lbs without gutting it, so any additional weight MUST be absolutely worth it. That's why I stepped back when you said 24 lbs. When you say 19 lbs, it sounds much more reasonable. I don't need the lightest wheel, but choosing a 24 lb wheel when there are plenty of decent 16 lb wheels out there would have been much more difficult.

Now I have another question Mitch - I know the lead time on these will take long, but what if we do end up bending a wheel (not that they should bend according to TD)? Will the lead time to get a replacement be another 6-8 weeks? That's another concern. If I went with the alternative I'd only be out 2 weeks waiting for a replacement in most cases from TireRack. What's the availability going to be like? 6-8 weeks could be the entire racing season out here.

 

[Poloturbo]

the 17x8 wheel is 19.8 lbs... Pro Race 1

 

[logic]

The Pro Race 1 is a different wheel. The Pro Race 1.2 17x8 weighs in at about 17.4 lbs.

 

[Poloturbo]

The Pro Race 1 is a different wheel. The Pro Race 1.2 17x8 weighs in at about 17.4 lbs.

OK, sorry about that.

 

[Suparata]

...
Now I have another question Mitch - I know the lead time on these will take long, but what if we do end up bending a wheel (not that they should bend according to TD)? Will the lead time to get a replacement be another 6-8 weeks? That's another concern. If I went with the alternative I'd only be out 2 weeks waiting for a replacement in most cases from TireRack. What's the availability going to be like? 6-8 weeks could be the entire racing season out here.

Well, at such a good deal you could buy two sets, use them with different tires and in case something goes wrong...
Or you could do something else too. Since everybody else wanted Anthracite including me you can choose those too. I don’t have an engine for my car and there are no signs of building one in the near future so if you need one…
http://www.engintecs.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=3550
That is only a 7" but you can see the color.