12:1 comp too much for pump+meth & half filled block ok for street

[dmaffo]

looking to buy a new engine for my set up and in consideration of a few fully built engines I have come across a lil dilema.
1- is a half filled block ok for street driving?
2-is a 11:1 or higher compression too much for pump gas?
3-are alluminum internals like rods etc prone to periodic inspection? if so how long intervals?

I have my eye on this:

12:1 High compression aluminum rod o-ringed motor

Head:
Built by Speed Injected and Cascar
Kiggly behive springs
+1mm valves
Sleeved
H11 ARPs

Block:
Custom Wiseco HD pistons
Groden aluminum rods
FFWD Butchered double knife edged crank
Magnus Girdle
All ARP hardware
King race bearings
Copper O-ring

Can I drive this on street 94 sunoco octane +meth or only c16?

Ive seen similar builds but with half filled blocks and not sure of streetability.
All in all its a weekend car that will see track once or twice a month...

thank you.

 

[spoolin ddub]

looking to buy a new engine for my set up and in consideration of a few fully built engines I have come across a lil dilema.
1- is a half filled block ok for street driving?
2-is a 11:1 or higher compression too much for pump gas?
3-are alluminum internals like rods etc prone to periodic inspection? if so how long intervals?

I have my eye on this:

12:1 High compression aluminum rod o-ringed motor

Head:
Built by Speed Injected and Cascar
Kiggly behive springs
+1mm valves
Sleeved
H11 ARPs

Block:
Custom Wiseco HD pistons
Groden aluminum rods
FFWD Butchered double knife edged crank
Magnus Girdle
All ARP hardware
King race bearings
Copper O-ring

Can I drive this on street 94 sunoco octane +meth or only c16?

Ive seen similar builds but with half filled blocks and not sure of streetability.
All in all its a weekend car that will see track once or twice a month...

thank you.

1- is a half filled block ok for street driving? It's fine for the street
2-is a 11:1 or higher compression too much for pump gas? Hell yeah it's to high. Even with meth the window of error for tuning smh. That's E85 territory.

3-are alluminum internals like rods etc prone to periodic inspection? if so how long intervals? ETS told me personally they had no issues on a car but tore it down to check and the rods looked like shit. 14K is what they had on the motor. The question to ask is this. Is the little gains worth the extra money and maintenance?

 

[dmaffo]

1- is a half filled block ok for street driving? It's fine for the street
2-is a 11:1 or higher compression too much for pump gas? Hell yeah it's to high. Even with meth the window of error for tuning smh. That's E85 territory.

3-are alluminum internals like rods etc prone to periodic inspection? if so how long intervals? ETS told me personally they had no issues on a car but tore it down to check and the rods looked like shit. 14K is what they had on the motor. The question to ask is this. Is the little gains worth the extra money and maintenance?

100+ views and only one person commented?
anyone else care to say or put their .02cents?

BTW thank you for your comments spoolin ddub!!!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Yes you can run a half-fill block on the street, but I would recommend a 1990 OFH and a good sized remote oil cooler.

Yes 12.0 on a boosted pump gas motor is too high. You shouldn't be relying on the meth, and whatever comp slugs you go with, I hope you install some failsafes for the meth kit in case the pump dies, the injector sticks, empty tank etc.

The aluminum rods should be inspected and measured, including the rod bolts, regularly. That interval depends on how you drive. The aluminum will stretch and expand over time, how much is going to depend on the setup and your operating habits.

IIRC most of these aluminum rods require clearancing in the block as well.

The biggest key to longevity with the aluminum rods is letting them get up to operating temperature before beating on them.

Run lower compression and make the power on timing and boost. Lower comp motor has more waste heat to spool the turbo. That and you can likely get away with more timing and aggressive fueling out of boost to help make up the difference in response.

 

[Zack Huffman]

I wouldn't try to fill coolant passages at all on a street driven car, unless you KNOW you won't overheat it due to some other solution. If it's a drag-only track-car with plenty of cooling time between passes, then sure it will add some rigidity to that already O-ringed deck.

Personally, I would never want over ~9.5:1 on 94 octane, even with water/alcohol injection. I might consider about 10:1 up to 11:1 if the car was going to be operating strictly on E85 or 110+.

Aluminum rods just means you plan on inspecting the rods every 2nd time you do an oil change.

This engine sounds like pure overkill with lots of headaches for a street driven car. If it's just a weekend track car that gets a trailer, I'd love to see you go for it. Just do us all a favor and remember to post up about your experiences with it.

 

[twicks69]

Though the motor sounds nice, it would be best suited for a track car on either methanol, E98 or E85 or very high octane race fuel (C16/VP NOS/Q16/VP Import).

The 1/2 fill would be ok for short duration street driving. I would most definitely not want to get stuck in stop-and-go traffic on the highway or in city with it though. I would strongly recommend using a high quality electric water pump to control water flow through the 1/2 block fill and the head as it will be crucial for the motor to survive in conjunction with a large capacity external oil cooler.

As for the aluminum rods, the most important thing to running them is warming up the car fully before putting any sort of load on the rods, and NEVER DECELERATING AFTER LOAD. Most of the failures I have seen or heard of regarding aluminum rods are people that are doing a dyno pull or pass at the track and go from 100% load to letting off the gas and essentially enging braking the car. The safest way for the rods would be to do your pass and shift to neutral and let the motor rev down on its own without load. This is difficult though with people running autos and takes some time to get used to for street use. As for service intervals, personally, if everything is looking good and the tune has been perfect and the oil is perfect (do lab analysis testing); I wouldn't touch the rod bolts or the rods until they fail. If this was a street car, I would probably pull the pan and ONLY check rod bolt torque specs; I would not remove the rod bolt as that is where the normal failures occur down the road -- rod bolts pulling out the threads on the rod. If you are going to remove the rod, I personally would replace the rod and fasteners. That's my call at least. It might be a bit much, but I like being safe. As well, you always want to properly cool down your engine before shutting off; never run the motor hot and then just turn it off; you need the oil and coolant to cycle through and progressively cool down the components prior to shutdown unless there is an emergency.

As for the motor, the 12:1 is a bit high for pump/meth setups; especially since it will be dependant on your boost levels and your tune. I would rather see race gas w/100% meth injection if I was going to run a 12:1 motor, or E85 w/ 100% meth injection.

If you ran this motor on pump/meth with relatively moderate boost levels (30+psi), you better damn well have a perfect tune and never run out of 100% meth. If I was doing a pump/meth motor, I would go with 9:1 compression pistons. If on E85, 10.5:1; if on 100% E98, 12:1; if on 100% methanol, 13:1-13.5:1.

I would pass on the motor, or change your goals to using a substantially more effective fuel setup.

That sound like a very nice all-out drag motor that would be best suited in a 8-second or faster car.

 

[1SLOW93TURBO]

I agree with Tim 100% on the rods. GRP even told me not to pull the caps since it does indeed wear the rod bolt threads. Thanks for all your input Tim, I will be testing the half filled block for street driving.

 

[twicks69]

I agree with Tim 100% on the rods. GRP even told me not to pull the caps since it does indeed wear the rod bolt threads. Thanks for all your input Tim, I will be testing the half filled block for street driving.

Be sure to use Redline water wetter and water with a tiny amount (like 4oz) of anti-freeze. Do something like one bottle or 1/2 bottle (if you are using a mini-radiator) and the rest distilled water.

I am using the Davies Craig EWP115 w/ pump controller remotely mounted with a blockoff plate on the block and a custom water neck off the head without a thermostat. I simply have the pump controller control flow based upon coolant temperatures and it works fantastic.

Good luck!!

 

[bastarddsm]

Be sure to use Redline water wetter and water with a tiny amount (like 4oz) of anti-freeze. Do something like one bottle or 1/2 bottle (if you are using a mini-radiator) and the rest distilled water.

I am using the Davies Craig EWP115 w/ pump controller remotely mounted with a blockoff plate on the block and a custom water neck off the head without a thermostat. I simply have the pump controller control flow based upon coolant temperatures and it works fantastic.

Good luck!!

Are you running a half filled block tim?

The other thing, is you might want to run the coolant at a lower temp. Keep in mind, that just because it doesn't "over heat" in the traditional way doesn't mean it isn't too hot. There is a lot less area to put heat in, so the cooling system won't have such a hard time keeping it under control....But you the pistons/ring won't be able to let the heat out as well, so they can be overheating while the rest of the motor is not. Running a lower water temp will help pull the heat out of the pistons/rings/cylinders better. It would also help a bunch having a good oil cooler You will in essence be 50% water cooled 50% oil cooled, vs 90/10 with a non filled block.

 

[TSimage]

To interject.. We've done 10+ compression on the street on piss 91 octane and meth. 10:1 and 11.5:1 offers little difference. Yes you run less boost but with higher compression you make more power on less boost and less timing.

There are pros and cons to everything. With lower compression you can run more boost and timing but what are the main 2 things that destroy engines? Boost and timing. It makes you feel "too safe" when you are in a danger zone. A high comp 10:1+ motor at 20psi will be running easily with a 8:1 at 25psi. Having 94 octane plus meth means you can put together a 100octane setup as well as the cooling properties of the meth which are a plus because the only con of higher compression is heat.

Considering the OP wants a weekend car that is made for the track but can be driven on the street, Its not a daily driver we are talking here nor a car that will be hammered on pump gas. (anyone who does that with a turbo the size of the one the OP has with ANY compression ratings is a fool)

Just a different flip side to the coin. This car wont see many miles and the OPs main focus is making power. He'll be just fine.

 

[dmaffo]

To clear things up,
NO its not going to be my daily driving car.
Will I commute back and forth to work for months straight no.
Its a car i will drive to track or trailer there and accomplish a 150mph goal I have set for myself.
Will drive it to work every now and then sure why not.
Will take out on weekends at the "meets" and have fun with it there too.

 

[twicks69]

To clear things up,
NO its not going to be my daily driving car.
Will I commute back and forth to work for months straight no.
Its a car i will drive to track or trailer there and accomplish a 150mph goal I have set for myself.
Will drive it to work every now and then sure why not.
Will take out on weekends at the "meets" and have fun with it there too.

Hey, its' your call on a T04Z and high boost. I would simply recommend race fuel for any real amount of boost.

I was simply giving a recommendation.

 

[twicks69]

Are you running a half filled block tim?

The other thing, is you might want to run the coolant at a lower temp. Keep in mind, that just because it doesn't "over heat" in the traditional way doesn't mean it isn't too hot. There is a lot less area to put heat in, so the cooling system won't have such a hard time keeping it under control....But you the pistons/ring won't be able to let the heat out as well, so they can be overheating while the rest of the motor is not. Running a lower water temp will help pull the heat out of the pistons/rings/cylinders better. It would also help a bunch having a good oil cooler You will in essence be 50% water cooled 50% oil cooled, vs 90/10 with a non filled block.

I am not running a filled block or o-ringed head. Simply L19's (7-bolt) and a Mitsu MLS head gasket.

 

[dmaffo]

Hey, its' your call on a T04Z and high boost. I would simply recommend race fuel for any real amount of boost.

I was simply giving a recommendation.

And I will most certainly TAKE YOU UP on that.
Essentially I want to achieve something and will probably keep going to track until I get what i went there to accomplish! Afterwards perhaps run on street+meth as a security blanket.
But any advise I will most certainly listen to. Im not really needing to fill in block and yes probably going to get that motor!
Very nice pieces.

 

[twicks69]

It does sound like a kick-ass motor! I would love to run it on methanol with your turbo and max the shit out of it!

 

[TurboAnything]

My R&R aluminum rods have been great. I probably have 7,000+ miles on them all street time i have been to the track and dyno once each. My oil has looked great i run a small sample through a paint strainer and have not seen anything in it. I drive this car everyday if the weather is nice. And what i mean by nice is no snow on the ground. I have driven it in -10 degree weather and i do not baby the car. The main thing i do is warm it up fully before driving it.

The rods themselves cannot stretch i was assured this by R&R. The only problem is the aluminum expands faster and more then the steel rod bolts. So over time the bolt will be stretched and cause it to come loose. I run ARP L19 rod bolts and do not expect to even check them until its time to freshen up the block in 8-10,000 miles from now.

my motor consists of
JE 9.0cr
R&R aluminum rods 21mm pins
stock polished crank
ACL race bearings

It is simple and will lay down the power i want and has proven to be reliable. I can tell you stories about how i thought i killed this motor over a dozen times. But everything always checks out and she runs great. Another thing to remember is i am FWD so my motor sits at 9,000rpm in every gear.

 

[dmaffo]

Ill post my results with it. couple months should all be done

 

[mrfister11]

I am currently building a 7 bolt 2.3l aluminum rod 10.5+ c/r(whatever piston i can find) setup to be daily driven.. (not 150 miles a day but on a regular basis)... my current car is a 185k mile, 120 psi compression. stock engine, 95 fwd auto, hx-35, 950cc, e-85 at 18psi running mid 12's BUUURRRNNING the tires off(too cold) on a 15 min tune... that is not enough for me so i am going to go radical like you and defy most everyones opinions.. i have read a few occasions where people bash the hell out of these type of engines and get away with it.. no real evidence to back up all these DONTS... only thing i am lacking right now is the pistons.. i think i found a set of custom Manleys with about 11:1(i hope so).. here is my list of changes/setup that i am doing.

7 bolt 4g63 block
eagle 4340 100mm butchered crank
Groden 150mm rods
10.5-11 c/r
light ported 7 bolt head, upgraded valvetrain, 101200 cams
stock 2g intake and throttle body
whatever injectors i need to run safely(e-85)
converting to AWD...gonna need it(keeping it auto)


this sounds like to be something you are looking for.. Tim has done this setup pretty close and has accomplished 800+AWHP.. the best you can do is ask, ask again, read, read some more.. weave through the BS, opinions, haters, and idiots. and ultimately not listening to anything you have found and doing it and finding out it wasnt a bad idea. HA.. i will let you know how my car does once it is completed

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

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So you are running mid 12s on a ~60lb/min turbo on baby boost with E85?

By the way E85 =/= pump 94oct.

11:1CR with real boost and aggressive timing is certainly doable on E85. Pump gas is a different story.

Don't just throw out the experience of others because it isnt what you want to hear.

You rebel, you.

What most have shared in here is not hearsay, it is very much grounded in real world experience.

We're trying to get this guy up and running on a solid setup with a good margin of safety for tuning and still be able to make great power.

The OP's original plan: A boosted 12:1 motor on pump and meth is going relying on the meth system, and that is a catastrophic failure waiting to happen.

 

[turboglenn]

I agree, it sounds like a ticking time bomb that has no "hours" setting, simplyue put would explode in minutes (at least the 12:1and pump+meth route is)

I was doing some reading many years ago and even called buschur to get their thoughts on compression ratio as well and it seems all sources of knowledge that i'd trust basedon their experience seem to agree that high compression isn't for a turbo engine no matter what octane of fuel you're using.simply put here's why..

if you look at anyone making high HP numbers (like 550-600+) you'll see all of them are forced to run boost levels in the range of 35psi and up.. reason is it takes that much force to get the amount of air into the engine on each cycle in order to create that type of power.. (smallerthe engine the more boost it really takes to get the same high HP out of it as compared to a larger disaplcement engine with morecylinders) NO matter what the compression ratio, the amount of air coming in the the sole limtier/decider of how much HP can be extracted from it.. until some one shows me a car putting out 400hp on 30 lb/min of air i will stand by this SO if you're happy with what you can get out of a turbo at lower boostlevels and want ot be bound into tuning to extract allyou can from a given boost level no matter what turbo you run then you might want high compression.

But if you want to make a lot of HP (the kind of numebrs that start putting you in the filled block category) then you don't want 12:1 pistons, you want something that will allow you to run high boost levels to extract a turbo's real potential in airflow, and simply put you can't squeeze that type of air into an engine as small as ours without running boost levels in the high 30's mid 40's.. it's nothing to do with what turbo you pick, iot's simply based on the engine displacement, head port size, valve size, cam size etc... if you were running a 6 liter engine with huge valves, short large runner manifold and the line with a turbo that could support your desired HP ratings at boost levels below 25psi then that compression might be right for you. but you won't squeeze enough air into a tiny two literto produce high HP without boost levels in excess of 35psi

I'm not here to argue this, i'm just pointing out what I learned from my many years of reading and asking all the "big time" racers that would answer my questions why they did or didn't do certain things and 10 years ago this was one of my questions and I remember Bushur telling me that their race engines at that time were 7.5:1 (ormaybe lower) even on 116 leaded gas because of these basic rules of airflow, pressure, andwhat it takes to pull HP from a small CC engine

 

[bastarddsm]

converting to AWD...gonna need it(keeping it auto)

Z. Guarantee you don't get an AWD swap done. .

 

[j_biggz]

TurboGlenn thanks for the info.

 

[mrfister11]

Z. Guarantee you don't get an AWD swap done. .

o really? why is that? you tell me what YOU know about swapping it and WHY i wont get it done... FYI i just have to weld the carrier bearing bracket on.. but ill let you give it a shot..

hell i remember seeing a post on here somewhere where some mexican did it in a parking lot and has never really done any kind of mechanical work.. so please explain


also my point of my first post, which is not clear at all ha, is i think you CAN do it but with e85