10:1 and pump gas, lb/min numbers

[Raymos24]

Hey guys, I have a question about a high compression engine and pump gas. So I built my car with 10:1 compression pistons and I run E85. They work great together. However, there are only 3 stations in all of MA (I lucked out because I live 10 min from one of them). My question is how many lb/min would one expect to get safely on pump gas with the 10:1 compression. The car never really sees the track and its also fwd so I spin to high heaven when I run 25psi on my hx40. Anyone with experience is welcome to comment. I have heard of people running around 40lb/min on this compression ratio but with only 8* of timing. What are your opinions on this? Thanks for any input.

Anyone? Am i going to have to be the guinea pig ?

 

[toofast82]

Pump gas doesn't like much timing,
You want to run an adequate amount of boost to be efficient with your turbo while meeting your power goals.
Run a safe a/f for the particular fuel you are using.
Increase timing until knock occurs, then decrease til it disappears

 

[turboglenn]

sadly 10:1 and pump fuels don't make good friends Which is why you seee wuch retarded timing, it's just something you have to deal with or spray soem water/meth on top of it.

moving more air with less timing has been the key (more like crutch or trick) to making big power on pump gas in turbo cars for years... soem fo the EVO's that buschur puts out trhat are making like 5-600 hp on pump gas are peaking out at 6* timing so it's not un-common adn is going to probably be what you'll have to put up with when forced to run pump gas.. I only have 9:1 slugs in my build and i have to back timing off quite a bit from when i had tuned with stock 1g pistons that are7.8:1 CR

The 3 keys of burning your mixture and making power are in this order of importance/effectiveness

1.) airflow = top dog

2.) AFR = burning the fuel that matches the air at the proper ratio gives the best and most complete burn giving the best energy transfer from liquid fuel to burning gasses

3.) timing (this can be argued and i even go back and forth with it myself) but lighting the mixture off in time to get a complete burn and also get the burn to set off to where peak cylinder pressure occurs at the correct time is honestly a must and will make or break your power avaiabvility per CFM of A/F mix BUT****** when your timing is in a proper area to provide PCP at the correct time, adding MORE timing will give the smallest gain compared to adding more air flow or leaning the mixture out for a hotter faster and more complete burn (again most important is getting PCP to occur at the correct time) (i say this is arguable because timing can yield more power than AFR when the combo of the 3 is not prefectly balanced to begin with) *eaxmples are... if your AFR is god but your timing is too low, you'll get more power from timing than from leaning out more, but on the other hand if your timing is where is should be for PCP timing, you'll gain more by getting the AFR's correct than by adding more timing)

That's why although you can make huge power with lots of air and no timing it's really not the correct way to do the job and why you see many sites about tuning recomend that you either back off the boost or lower the compression ratio when you have to run timing that retarded to get by without pre-ignition or detonation

it's all about balance.... that's why when i ride in a car moving a lot of air wqith no timing and a good AFR it still feels sluggish to me and not "crisp", as if the anti-lag was still half engaged, but when i ride in a car with good timing and a rich AFR things feel good but you know there's a little more than can be pulled out and the entire feel of the engine will improve from that as well, just not by as much

 

[Raymos24]

Wow thanks for the explanation. Looks like I'll either have to stay with the E-85 or run no timing at all. Thanks for explaining it.

 

[red_devil]

moving more air with less timing has been the key (more like crutch or trick) to making big power on pump gas in turbo cars for years... soem fo the EVO's that buschur puts out trhat are making like 5-600 hp on pump gas are peaking out at 6* timing so it's not un-common adn is going to probably be what you'll have to put up with when forced to run pump gas.. I only have 9:1 slugs in my build and i have to back timing off quite a bit from when i had tuned with stock 1g pistons that are7.8:1 CR

Have you been drinking or loss of blood again?

 

[habitatguy187]

Have you been drinking or loss of blood again?

Defiant's gone so he doesn't care.

 

[turboglenn]

it could be any combination of the above 3

truth be told i had to reformat my PC because of a program called powerISO that made my drives stop functioning and locked my OS, so there for i lost my IEspellcheck applet thingy and haven't re-installed it yet

other than that i'm just a fat fingered man who hits too many keys and tries to type as fast as possible so i can fit in everything i need to post in ::

What's really weird is that i AM alllowed to drink although i have these issues (but shouldn't i guess) and definitely no hard alcohol, but some 6-8 months back i just lost the taste for drinking altogether, a six pack of beer can sit in my fridge for a month and MAYBE get one or 2 drank a week if it's just me ( i think that's one of the signs of the apocolypse)

 

[1997_GSX]

Look at my specs with my meth nozzle in backwards doh so the meth wasn't very effective ... I was able to run 34 psi @ 8-9 degrees of timing flowing 47lbs per minute pushing coolant.

Now the HG has been fixed, new O-rings, have 2 625ml nozzles and going to be running speed density should be ready by this week to get tuned. I will update you with the meth and all the fixes.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

it could be any combination of the above 3

truth be told i had to reformat my PC because of a program called powerISO that made my drives stop functioning and locked my OS, so there for i lost my IEspellcheck applet thingy and haven't re-installed it yet

other than that i'm just a fat fingered man who hits too many keys and tries to type as fast as possible so i can fit in everything i need to post in ::

What's really weird is that i AM alllowed to drink although i have these issues (but shouldn't i guess) and definitely no hard alcohol, but some 6-8 months back i just lost the taste for drinking altogether, a six pack of beer can sit in my fridge for a month and MAYBE get one or 2 drank a week if it's just me ( i think that's one of the signs of the apocolypse)

You reformatted because of PowerISO? Wow dude.
Anyways, Here's a few to re-light the candle:
Lagunitas Maximus Double IPA
Russian River Pliny the Elder Double IPA
Russian River Blind Pig IPA
Alexander Valley Imperial IPA
Bear Republic Racer X Double IPA (brewery only)

Just a few thoughts. Oh yeah, pump gas doesn't like timing.

 

[Raymos24]

Look at my specs with my meth nozzle in backwards doh so the meth wasn't very effective ... I was able to run 34 psi @ 8-9 degrees of timing flowing 47lbs per minute pushing coolant.

Now the HG has been fixed, new O-rings, have 2 625ml nozzles and going to be running speed density should be ready by this week to get tuned. I will update you with the meth and all the fixes.

So you were able to push 47 lb/min and 9* of timing on your Arias 10:1 pistons on pump? Thats crazy! Good info.

 

[1997_GSX]

So you were able to push 47 lb/min and 9* of timing on your Arias 10:1 pistons on pump? Thats crazy! Good info.

Yep, it ran pretty good too I cant wait to get it back out with the meth fixed.

and that 47lb a min was on my tiny little pte scm3231re dbb 54 trim.

Hopefully I can get 50 -52 out of this turbo, I think it is reaching the end of its efficiency . Time for a new turbo setup something that actually makes power.

 

[Raymos24]

Dang those are pretty good numbers for pump man. I might have to try this out if I get tired of having only 2 stations in new england to fill up from . I count my blessings that they are both 15 min away. But pump does not look so scary anymore.

Are you going to go to the 50-52 lb/min with the meth kit? I still can't believe you got 47 lb/min on straight pump with no meth!

 

[habitatguy187]

I still can't believe you got 47 lb/min on straight pump with no meth!

He said he was running meth but the nozzle was backwards. Even so it should still be a whole lotta help over straight pump.

 

[JayRolla]

So you were able to push 47 lb/min and 9* of timing on your Arias 10:1 pistons on pump? Thats crazy! Good info.

When you get timing down under 10* you can run pretty much any compression with some good airflow. Timing is crazy when it comes to knock compared to upping compression and boost. If I was you keep filling up on e85. 22* advance on e85 is worth the drives.

 

[Black95TSIawd]

I'm not so sure as to why anyone would want to run less than 10 degrees of timing advance. Its no wonder you holset guys are making like 350whp at 29psi.

 

[1997_GSX]

He said he was running meth but the nozzle was backwards. Even so it should still be a whole lotta help over straight pump.

Not so much. My tuner was the one who led me to look at it. He couldn't believe how it wasn't affecting anything.

I just can't wait to actually make this car fast. 47lb a min is still slow to me I will be happy for a little while with 60. The fun happens round 65 - 70 lbs a minute.

Just need to stack some paper to get a new fuel pump and turbo setup. I just ordered 1600cc injectors.

I'm not so sure as to why anyone would want to run less than 10 degrees of timing advance. Its no wonder you holset guys are making like 350whp at 29psi.

It still runs good. I walks just about everything around here. And it will leave 70ft blackmarks off all 4

 

[turboglenn]

I'm not so sure as to why anyone would want to run less than 10 degrees of timing advance. Its no wonder you holset guys are making like 350whp at 29psi.

yea, although i agree i don't knock em for doing it, to each their own, but i'm not happy running my timing anywhere under 20* simply for the fact taht you start pushing hot gasses (way too hot of gasses that is) out into the mani and turbine... You may be moving a lot of air but you can make more power safer if you can get thee timing back up to a decent range and run a little less boost

it's all a balancing act IMO, and although the trick has worked for many for years, i just can't brin myself to do it,, i hate feeling the "potential power" that's just being held back by burning way too late to do as good of a job as it can... i still stand by what i said above as far as what does what the best, but you can spray meth or just run e85 and feel some real power with good timing numbers

I dont' know how to make ayone understand by typing it out, but you feel the car building power, and although you may still hit 500HP, it's like you ffeel the car lag back while it starts to buil;d it up and even during the pull... It's like running 30psi but pulling a 3 ton trailer IMO, i mean yea the power is there but your just not making it's full potential and anyone who's experienced some tuning or even just riding in many different high power cars will know what i'm trying to say..it's like the antilag never turns off once you've hit full boost, there's a lot of energy being transfered, but there's more being wasted than being put to the ground

 

[talondave]

I walks just about everything around here.

Untill Me and ricky come down to visit

 

[1997_GSX]

Untill Me and ricky come down to visit

Hehe the truf... But watch out, I'm coming for ya as soon as I get around $3k then I will run you

 

[talondave]

Hehe the truf... But watch out, I'm coming for ya as soon as I get around $3k then I will run you

Sweet!!! We are going to Hagerstown mason dixon dragway next sunday if you want to come along!

 

[1997_GSX]

Sweet!!! We are going to Hagerstown mason dixon dragway next sunday if you want to come along!

I shall try man it stinks being unemployed . I will take $120 to go and run...

$40 in gas to get there, 40 entry, $40 to get back. This thing gets like 15mpg... Maybe if I kept my foot off the throttle

 

[Black95TSIawd]

It still runs good. I walks just about everything around here. And it will leave 70ft blackmarks off all 4

I did that with my 16g.

 

[Raymos24]

Hey guys, so I did something different this past weekend with my car. As most of you know I have 10:1 compression ratio Ross pistons and I normally run E85. However, this weekend decided to throw some 93 in the tank for two reasons. First, I wanted to clean out the gunk that might be on my injectors. Secondly, I wanted to see how the car would react to 93. So I filled up, with 93 and the car seems like a different animal. It idles smoother and even pulls more vaccum at idle . I am considering just running 93 in the car from now on. All I did was change the global to the tune. Now I don't know how much my engine with the 10:1 compression pistons is going to like the pump gas, especially with this big turbo. I was talking to one of the employees at Slowboy and he runs 10:1 compression on a BW turbo and he seems to be happy with the results. I know it won't be nearly as much power as E85 but can it at least be somewhat decent? Just wondering what peole think of this change in gas. I am willing to sacrifice power for diveability.