There is no way.....

I am assuming the engine was never run, definitely remove all that copper stuff. An organic solvent should do it. As far as the head is concerned, I would have it gone through. It might have been resurfaced past the limit so a much thicker head gasket might be needed. In all honesty, I would take apart EVERYTHING including the bottom end. So many red flags.

ItsJustin said:

Good morning guys!

New to the DSM world but have been lurking on these super helpful forums for a few months now.

I picked up an allegedly freshly rebuilt, never run 6-bolt off of marketplace for super cheap, so I couldn’t resist the opportunity to swap it into my ‘87 Mighty Max.

Obviously I don’t trust stranger’s word on whatever they’re selling so I decided to pull the head and have a look at everything for peace of mind before I start boosting around.

It appears than on assembly, the dingleberry who put it together copper sprayed literally everything, valves, pistons, some of the cylinder walls, oil journals and anything else.

I don’t know these motors at all, the initial plan was to run it for a couple hundred miles at a decent clip to seat the rings then change the oil and go about my life from then on out. Do you guys see any potential issues coming out of a coating off copper spray in the combustion chamber? I know the directions on the can specifically mention to avoid spraying into the cylinders.

Additionally, it looks to me like some of the valves have kissed the piston as well, seeing as the copper has been removed from both the piston relief and the valve itself. I didn’t see any warpage on the valves but of course that’s just me eyeballing it. How badly bent or damaged do the valves have to be for it to be a serious problem in these motors?

I’ve attached photos so you guys can see exactly what I’m referring too

Thanks for your time!

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Everybody will have an opinion, here is mine. Tear it all down. Send the head out, those valves have touched. You wont know if the valves are bent unless they're looked at. As for the copper spray i would clean it all up. I have no opinion on the use of copper spray. I do not use it.

Thanks for the quick replies!

Never really had to clean anything inside of the cylinders before, surely brake cleaner and a new microfiber cloth won’t damage any of the cyl walls or mating surfaces?

And good shouts, I’ll bring the head to the performance shop I’m having fab my exhaust, better safe than sorry, and boy am I glad I decided to pull the head to look!

I would pull the crank and clean the insides, if they sprayed they probably didn’t clean it properly. The crank likes to store contaminants.

Like stated above tear it all down.
Trust him he speaks from experience I know because I do too.

ItsJustin said:

Good morning guys!

New to the DSM world but have been lurking on these super helpful forums for a few months now.

I picked up an allegedly freshly rebuilt, never run 6-bolt off of marketplace for super cheap, so I couldn’t resist the opportunity to swap it into my ‘87 Mighty Max.

Obviously I don’t trust stranger’s word on whatever they’re selling so I decided to pull the head and have a look at everything for peace of mind before I start boosting around.

It appears than on assembly, the dingleberry who put it together copper sprayed literally everything, valves, pistons, some of the cylinder walls, oil journals and anything else.

I don’t know these motors at all, the initial plan was to run it for a couple hundred miles at a decent clip to seat the rings then change the oil and go about my life from then on out. Do you guys see any potential issues coming out of a coating off copper spray in the combustion chamber? I know the directions on the can specifically mention to avoid spraying into the cylinders.

Additionally, it looks to me like some of the valves have kissed the piston as well, seeing as the copper has been removed from both the piston relief and the valve itself. I didn’t see any warpage on the valves but of course that’s just me eyeballing it. How badly bent or damaged do the valves have to be for it to be a serious problem in these motors?

I’ve attached photos so you guys can see exactly what I’m referring too

Thanks for your time!

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And what is in the middle of the number 1 piston? Somebody hit it with a drill bit?

pauleyman said:

And what is in the middle of the number 1 piston? Somebody hit it with a drill bit?

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If I was to guess, I would assume they used some sort of a screwdriver or punch to see whether or not piston 1 was at TDC? Definitely scratched off the copper obviously, but I ran my fingers over it and couldn’t feel any depression in the face itself.

I’m an aircraft mechanic by trade so I am not nearly as practiced in traditional combustion engines, would some scratches in the center of the face like that have a crazy effect on compression? In my admittedly unknowledgeable mind, I would have thought damage near the outward edge or rings would be more concerning?

But that’s why I’m asking!
I’ll be dropping the oil pan anyways to tap a temp sensor, so I suppose it’s not really that much more effort to go through the whole motor for a hell of a lot more peace of mind

Thanks again guys, let me know if there’s any 4g specific warning signs I should keep my eyes out for when I pull the bottom end!

Wow,,,what a disaster. Everything has to come apart. You can't trust this type of assembly. No reason for all this cooper spray, looks like valves both intake and exhaust valves for 3 of the 4 cylinders have made contact with the pistons, either that had is shaved below spec, or the timing was not done right. First thing I would do is put the spark plugs back, flip the head, pour a little soap and water mix on top of the valves, and blow some compressed air through the INT/EX manifold to see if they bubble, loosing compression.

All that cooper spray is gonna go into your compression rings, some might even make it to oil rings. Hell, it might even damage/crack the rings, just depends how many layers of copper spray they put on there.

I'm sure whoever did all this work used a dirty shop towel they had laying on a garage floor. All that dirt and debris,+ Copper spray will end up in your pickup tube screen and inside your oil pump, bearing etc ..

Bottom end for sure has to be all taken apart, all the bearing clearances checked, cylinder bores measured and checked for uneven wear or scratches. Ring gaps, and condition of piston skirts has to be checked.

I don't even see fresh hone marks! Maybe they didn't do anything to the bottom end, just the head was tortured and HG replaced. He probably just used 80 grit, on the block sprayed the hell out of it with copper spray, did the same with the head and HG, and put it all back together using his long screwdriver to put #1 TDC ( which he missed a couple of times, I'm sure)

Has to all come apart. That bottom end is a mystery, if the top is like that what's on the bottom?

If you are going to run that MLS head gasket that came with the engine the deck surface needs to be almost perfectly flat or it won't last long. Any 4g block I have ever surfaced the deck on has always been low in the middle. I highly double the dingleberry that assembled that had the deck surfaced. My recommendation if you are not planning on running really high boost would just be to use a Felpro or OEM composite gasket. They'll seal up just fine even if the deck isn't perfect. They also act like a fuse when something goes wrong. Better to blow a head gasket than torch a head or piston.

97egl said:

If you are going to run that MLS head gasket that came with the engine the deck surface needs to be almost perfectly flat or it won't last long. Any 4g block I have ever surfaced the deck on has always been low in the middle. I highly double the dingleberry that assembled that had the deck surfaced. My recommendation if you are not planning on running really high boost would just be to use a Felpro or OEM composite gasket. They'll seal up just fine even if the deck isn't perfect. They also act like a fuse when something goes wrong. Better to blow a head gasket than torch a head or piston.

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Good info! My little truck KM132 tranny absolutely cannot handle really high boost or power numbers, and even down the line the end goal is only around 300-350whp with a different tranny, so I’ll get a felpro permatorque for when I get the head back from the shop, gonna be dropping it off this afternoon.
Thanks!

Based on the valve contact, the head needs to be torn apart, valves checked, valve guides checked. Also, the deck height measurement points on the cylinder head should be checked to see what life is left on the cylinder head; it may be cut past specs. Refer to the attachment pg. 10 bottom half (DOHC 4G63) and then 80-84, this looks like a 6-bolt 4g63 from the head ports.

Either you have bent valves, or someone didn't have a timing belt correctly installed, which still means those valves need to be properly checked for runout, or expect to get fresh valves and potentially valve quides and seals, and then get them lapped in so they fully seat.

If the head is past service specs, then you will need a THICKER gasket, or a replacement good cylinder head to work with. There are several companies that make thicker gaskets. The factory OEM MLS head gasket is 0.045" thick, that one looks like a Cometic? Someone correct me if I am wrong, it has been a while. Cometic (0.051", 0.060", 0.066", 0.070", 0.075", 0.084", 0.095"), HKS (2301-RM007 -- 0.062" 1.6mm thick), and others have thicker options

People do not understand that you copper spray both sides of the GASKET, and then place the cured coated gasket onto the deck surface...., not both sides of everything..... good lord. You have a lot of cleaning to do. Be thorough.

That’s completely butchered. I have never seen anything so stupid

the only semi-logical explanation is they pull the heads off junkyard motors and coat everything in copper spray to try and fake compression numbers and pass a leak down test.

The motor is unusable. They for sure have it soaked on the piston rings and the valves to fake compression.

twicks69 said:

Based on the valve contact, the head needs to be torn apart, valves checked, valve guides checked. Also, the deck height measurement points on the cylinder head should be checked to see what life is left on the cylinder head; it may be cut past specs. Refer to the attachment pg. 10 bottom half (DOHC 4G63) and then 80-84, this looks like a 6-bolt 4g63 from the head ports.

Either you have bent valves, or someone didn't have a timing belt correctly installed, which still means those valves need to be properly checked for runout, or expect to get fresh valves and potentially valve quides and seals, and then get them lapped in so they fully seat.

If the head is past service specs, then you will need a THICKER gasket, or a replacement good cylinder head to work with. There are several companies that make thicker gaskets. The factory OEM MLS head gasket is 0.045" thick, that one looks like a Cometic? Someone correct me if I am wrong, it has been a while. Cometic (0.051", 0.060", 0.066", 0.070", 0.075", 0.084", 0.095"), HKS (2301-RM007 -- 0.062" 1.6mm thick), and others have thicker options

People do not understand that you copper spray both sides of the GASKET, and then place the cured coated gasket onto the deck surface...., not both sides of everything..... good lord. You have a lot of cleaning to do. Be thorough.

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Thanks for all of your help guys!

Just got the head back from the shop and it was still within spec thank god, they said the same thing that @twicks69 said, they think that someone put the head on and THEN tried to turn the cam sprockets to align the pins to time it all, so probably made contact before fully assembled.

Definitely spent a long time tearing down, cleaning and reassembling everything. Internals cleaned up nicely and still do appear to be new, and I was able to verify that the pistons and rods are indeed Manley forged, so hopefully they’ll last me a while.

Definitely did not plan to do this much preventative mx before the motor is even in the truck, but I’m glad you guys were able to save me a potentially very pricey failure down the line!

Can’t wait to get this thing on the road and join the DSM community in more than just theory!

Hopefully every gallery plug got removed and all of the oiling system cleaned out in the block and head.

Im sure you did the crank, they all like to store hidden lill surprises.

I’ve lost brand new engines to this - assuming the machine shop was thorough in the post machine process.

Once I started doing it myself- no more problems.

NEVER assume the head is clean when you get it back. Sit it on something clean and move it around violently. See if any shaving come out? At the least, blow out all passages with compressed air or wash out all of them if in doubt.