What's wrong with my engine?

[TrevorS]

I'm planning to install a 2G exhaust manifold this summer and I want the engine to be in good shape before bolting it on. The engine is running fine, however, there is gray smoke out the exhaust under boost.

So, with a warmed up engine, I just checked the plenum vacuum with a gauge on the PCV hose. I then pulled the plugs and inspected the tips, and finally compression tested the cylinders, first as they were, and again with a good shot of oil in each. I cranked the engine for a count of ten for each compression test.

Here are the results:

Vacuum gauge oscillates rapidly within a 19 to 20 in-Hg range (600 rpm idle).

Compression test without oil (#4 to #1): 164 lbs, 152 lbs, 153 lbs, 158 lbs
Compression test with oil (#4 to #1): 170 lbs, 155 lbs, 157 lbs, 164 lbs

And here's a photo of the plugs, #4 at the left to #1 at the right:

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What needs to be done to bring my engine up to snuff ?

 

[MrBoxx]

Those spark plugs do not look like NGK BPR6ES plugs to me. Switch to NGK's ASAP. Do a boost leak test. Check your turbo for shaft play. Do you have a logger? What are you using for fuel and fuel management?

 

[TrevorS]

Those spark plugs do not look like NGK BPR6ES plugs to me. Switch to NGK's ASAP. Do a boost leak test. Check your turbo for shaft play. Do you have a logger? What are you using for fuel and fuel management?

The plug tips and boost smoke are gray, so this isn't an AFR issue. I did a BLT and corrected the one problem (split end on an EGR vacuum hose). The fuel management, MAF, and injectors are stock. The turbo has no fore/aft play.

The engine runs perfectly and boosts with no issues except for the gray smoke. There's 125K on the engine.

 

[DSMopar]

Looks good to me, I'd get rid of the bosch platinum junk though, those are detonation starters.

As far as the grey smoke, it depends how much but considering the stock map runs in the low 9.5 to 10:1 range.... i'd consider it normal.

If it looks like smoke you may have a turbo leaking a little oil...

 

[rush2252]

I had similar problems and found it was the PCV system. Try removing the IC piping and the SMIC and flushing it with solvent or gasoline. MY PCV was leaking causing alot of blowby. I thought it was the turbo and although it has quit a bit of shaft play it wasnt the problem. There was excessive amounts of oil being drawn into the IC pipes and Side mount. Once I flushed it and fixed the PCV I have no more smoke


Search the threads on PCV I cant remember where but I just read a thread a day or so ago about installing a Check Valve inline with the PCV between the manifold. This solved some peoples issues. The PCV was from US plastics I believe. Chico was one of the members who suggested it


Kolby

 

[TrevorS]

Looks good to me, I'd get rid of the bosch platinum junk though, those are detonation starters.

As far as the grey smoke, it depends how much but considering the stock map runs in the low 9.5 to 10:1 range.... i'd consider it normal.

If it looks like smoke you may have a turbo leaking a little oil...

Well, I'm not sure what else to call it -- under fairly strong boost (not light), I see in the rear-view a cloud of gray behind me. It's not at all blue or black -- just gray!

I had similar problems and found it was the PCV system. Try removing the IC piping and the SMIC and flushing it with solvent or gasoline. MY PCV was leaking causing alot of blowby. I thought it was the turbo and although it has quit a bit of shaft play it wasnt the problem. There was excessive amounts of oil being drawn into the IC pipes and Side mount. Once I flushed it and fixed the PCV I have no more smoke


Search the threads on PCV I cant remember where but I just read a thread a day or so ago about installing a Check Valve inline with the PCV between the manifold. This solved some peoples issues. The PCV was from US plastics I believe. Chico was one of the members who suggested it

Kolby

I just recently cleaned the TB, EGR, PCV, and SMIC (less than 1K ago). The PCV wasn't clogged and the valve moves freely, but I could replace it if that makes sense?

PS. Guess I should mention that up until about a year ago, I never really used the boost on this car, even though I've owned it since new. I replaced the OE turbo April 2008 (it had frozen), and started upgrading the intake system this past January. The car is definitely boosting more strongly now than it ever did OE, but I don't have the experience of what exhaust color is normal and what isn't when it comes to boost. My guess was it indicated an engine deficiency -- probably due to age. Maybe I'm wrong?

 

[rush2252]

I just recently cleaned the TB, EGR, PCV, and SMIC (less than 1K ago). The PCV wasn't clogged and the valve moves freely, but I could replace it if that makes sense?

Did you find the threads on the US plastics check valve? I heard it solves issues if its blow by even with the PCV I hear it fixes it IF thats the problem.

=Kolby

 

[TrevorS]

I just recently cleaned the TB, EGR, PCV, and SMIC (less than 1K ago). The PCV wasn't clogged and the valve moves freely, but I could replace it if that makes sense?

Did you find the threads on the US plastics check valve? I heard it solves issues if its blow by even with the PCV I hear it fixes it IF thats the problem.

=Kolby

I think this is the post you're referring to:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/229338-stupid-pcv-question-7.html#post151422332

I've bought from those people before -- already have an account . I gather that would be a better bet than just replacing the OE PCV valve?


PS. Here is the valve catalog page:
Check Valves - US Plastic Corporation

 

[shortyskater]

I have the same problem sometimes. When boosting hard I'll get the cloud of grey smoke. My buddies think its because I'm running rich. Do you have a wideband? If so check the readings when you notice the cloud.

 

[TrevorS]

I have the same problem sometimes. When boosting hard I'll get the cloud of grey smoke. My buddies think its because I'm running rich. Do you have a wideband? If so check the readings when you notice the cloud.

No, all my sensor, control, and monitoring equipment is stock. I'm making modest upgrades around the turbo, MAF, and injectors, but I'm not intending to change anything of that core a nature (check my profile).

I'm concluding gray is more rich than ideal, but not really a problem like black would be. My initial concern was it might represent oil burning, but that would actually be blue, so I'm guessing I may have been over concerned. I'm pretty new to boost and am still learning the ropes -- as it were !

 

[MrBoxx]

You still need to swap out those plugs for NGK's. Seriously.

 

[TrevorS]

You still need to swap out those plugs for NGK's. Seriously.

Thanks, I seriously appreciate your concern.

I recently spent some time researching that and learned in the early 2000's a number of people had problems where the center post electrode actually shrank down below the porcelain level resulting in ignition problems and also that in NOS applications, the platinum itself could chip. I further read that in the mid 2000's there were problems with the Iridium plugs where the ground electrodes actually came free and fell into the cylinder.

I've yet further read that both platinum and iridium pluigs have narrower center electrodes that result in less energetic sparks that can be extinguished (blown out) in high boost situations. The more traditional NGK copper plugs with larger diameter center electrodes are more immune to this issue and are strongly favored in this community for high boost situations (and generally, for that matter).

I'm also aware that one is pressed today to find any new cars, including turbo performance cars, that aren't sold with platinum plugs. Winter a year ago is the first time I've ever purchased platinum and I still really only have very few miles on them (under 2K), but I've yet to experience any ignition difficulties either under boost or otherwise. I'm choosing to give them their chance and if there are signs of trouble, they'll just have to go, but I'm in no rush. Whatever problems the early Bosch plugs may have had, they've had plenty of time to correct them, and my usage is largely low key. Perhaps I'm making a mistake, but time will tell. At least I believe I'm aware of the issues.

 

[MrBoxx]

It's not an issue with the "newer" Bosch plugs; it's an issue of "what kind of ignition system is in newer cars versus older cars?" and more importantly "what kind of spark plug is MEANT for that particular ignition system?" For example, running a copper plug in a BMW is asking for a melted electrode, due to their super-high voltage systems. In that case, they NEED the higher resistance and hardness that platinum offers. Thus, their ignition system (and their cars' ECU) is designed with this plug in mind.

Our cars run best when a non-platinum/iridium plug is used. And the best spark plugs out there for our cars are simply NGK BPR6ES, unless you run more boost, in which case go to a colder plug. It's been proven time and time again in these cars by people (including myself) who tried a platinum plug and found that it offered crappy mileage, hesitation, loss of power.. and then switching back to an NGK copper plug made all the problems go away.

Spend the $8 and 15 minutes of your time to switch them out and see if it doesn't make some of that gray smoke go away.

 

[TrevorS]

Interesting challenge !

Well, I'm planning on a leak down test shortly, and I guess there's no strong reason NGK's can't go in instead of the Bosch. I've seen multiple references to people installing platinum NGK's, where do those fall in this line of reasoning!

 

[Defiant]

Let's see if this can clear it up for you:

DO NOT USE PLATINUM SPARK PLUGS IN A DSM.​

It's not really a debatable question.

Try a set of nice, simple, cheap NGK BPR6ES plugs gapped at .028" before you do anything else, and let us know.

 

[stevo911]

I had the platniums in my car for three days. I blew a intake manifold due to back firing caused by them. I wasnt sure if it was the plugs so I switched the manifold and blew a brand new one within two weeks switched the plugs never had a problem since.

 

[TrevorS]

Well, in the spirit of point counter-point. These platinums are the first I've ever used in a car. The first time they fired was with a newly rebuilt ECU (March/April 2008) and the fully stock engine ran no differently with them as with the previous copper plugs before the OE ECU died.

Since then I've made modest performance improvements to the car as well as cleaning the TB and SMIC, Seafoaming the intake and fuel system, and adding MMO to the crankcase. The engine idles and runs far better that it ever did in the past and combined with replacement fluids in the transaxle, transfercase, and rear differential -- it's an absolute dream to drive. Certainly better than when new in terms of the engine, drive train, and associated performance.

I spent several hours searching information on copper Vs platinum and also vs specifically Bosch platinum. I could find nothing conclusive for non NOS applications. Plenty of people were happy with the platinums, and plenty would either never touch them again, or never touch them to begin with. Speaking for myself, I believe I'm aware of the issues and if I ever experience stumbling or the like, the first thing I'd check would be the plugs. But at the moment, there's no visible sign of wear and the engine appears to be running fine (my question being the gray exhaust under strong boost -- something I never used to do in the past).

I've learned the gray exhaust is indicative of a somewhat rich burn. The earlier suggestion is that the fuller spark of a copper NGK will probably reduce or eliminate that, and produce more power in the process. That's an argument I can understand and so I plan on a visit to Pepboys today to pick up four NGK BPR6ES plugs and give them a shot .

 

[Defiant]

Reading plugs and exhaust colors was an art that was essentially killed by the advent of the closed-loop feedback fuel injection system. It never was worth much, as getting an accurate plug cut was essentially impossible- you just cannot shut off a carbureted engine: it will run-on for several hundred revolutions.

If you want to waste an afternoon, track down a Colortune and try working with it. Just don't expect results.

 

[TrevorS]

Did you find the threads on the US plastics check valve? I heard it solves issues if its blow by even with the PCV I hear it fixes it IF thats the problem.

=Kolby

I think this is the post you're referring to:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/229338-stupid-pcv-question-7.html#post151422332

I've bought from those people before -- already have an account . I gather that would be a better bet than just replacing the OE PCV valve?


PS. Here is the valve catalog page:
Check Valves - US Plastic Corporation

The US Plastics valve arrived today, but I'm going to hold off installing it until I see what happens with the NGK plugs and leak down testing.

 

[TrevorS]

As a follow up to my previous compression test, I performed another Seafoam MT soak followed by dumping the rest of the can into the oil. After aprox 100mi (today) I changed the oil and filter again, redid the compression test, performed a leak down test, and finally installed a set of new NGK's w/ .028 gap (put the Bosch Platinums on the shelf).

The new dry compression readings were a little higher than before (taken via the identical procedure):
#1: before 158psi, now 162psi.
#2: before 153, now 154
#3: before 152, now 157
$4: before 164, now 167

The leak down test results are variable (apparently that's typical), but roughly speaking:
#1 to #4: 17, 18, 21, 17%. All leaks audible via the dipstick pipe.

My conclusion is there really isn't anything that makes sense doing to the engine at this time, but I really would have liked the leak down test to have been performed at higher than 15psi. Unfortunately, I have yet to learn how to adjust the Harbor Freight tester to enable this (supposed to support up to 100psi ).

 

[TrevorS]

Well, I definitely agree the NGK BPR6ES plugs (.028 gap) run differently from the Bosch Platimum Plus 4018 (pregapped), which is especially interesting since I was running that same NGK before my ECU burned up December 2007. I swapped out the plugs and leads at that time wondering if something there was preventing the car from starting -- obviously it wasn't ! My purchase of the Bosch instead of NGK was just curiosity (platinum being supposedly longer life).

However, after six miles with the brand new NGKs installed, I yanked them, put the Bosch back in, and took the car out again on the same run. Net result, there's no way I'll return to the NGK plugs. My idle speed dropped, throttle sensitivity dropped, willingness to spool dropped, an overall sense of sluggishness and lethargy settled on the car like a lead blanket after my lively experience of the Bosch. When driving with the Bosch, I keep having to let back off the throttle a little because the car seems to want to go. With the NGK, the car definitely doesn't go any faster unless I give it more throttle (it's like having underinflated tires).

Now, my Eclipse is a 125K 1990 GSX with stock injectors, MAF, FP, FPR, and ECU. Maybe for some cars and configurations the NGK's work better, but unless some problem develops with the Bosch, I'm satisfied the Platinum Plus are a huge upgrade over the NGK for sheer driving enjoyment. As for whether the NGK reduce the grayness of the exhaust under strong boost, I'm not sure, but even if they do, there's no way I'm going to sacrifice everything else the Bosch definitely do right!

Photo of the NGK after 6 miles:

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Photo of the Bosch after 2K miles:

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[hubz91talontsi]

So your sticking with the platimum? , good luck.

What do you mean tell me whats wrong with my engine...
Doesn't look like anything. Stock turbo correct? Its a 90 the seals are just getting a little lose man.
Your 100% fine.(well if you put the ngk's back in ;D)

 

[TrevorS]

So your sticking with the platimum? , good luck.

Given my comparative experience described above, why wouldn't I? The difference in behavior of the car is pretty darned obvious!

What do you mean tell me whats wrong with my engine...
Doesn't look like anything.

All I meant was that I could see a cloud of gray exhaust and thought that might indicate a problem that should be repaired before going on with further mods -- the 2G exhaust manifold for example. I've had the car since it was new, but I always just drove it relaxedly, never really used any boost to speak of.

It was bringing the car back to life (lots of accumulated problem repairs including replacing the frozen OE 14b turbo) that got me looking at it as more than just a car. So, now I'm having a little more fun with it than before !

Stock turbo correct?

Yep, I replaced the original with a young rebuilt 14b.

Its a 90 the seals are just getting a little lose man
Your 100% fine.(well if you put the ngk's back in ;D)

Sure is looking that way -- another step or three in my learning curve.

Yeah, I probably should just've regapped the previous NGK's (still have them), but I bought new ones in order to do it "right"!

The difference from the Bosch is just too radical in the wrong direction for me to even consider leaving the NGK in. I was really surprised, there was a several month gap between plugs before because I had no idea if I could even get the car running again (dealership basically declared it a lost cause). I never expected any difference between the plugs except longevity. Believe me, I don't normally leave plugs installed for only 6 miles ! This was kinda like being hit over the head with a 2x4 !