what size Injectors should i get??

[1997_GSX_mar]

ok well i have 255 walbro fuel pump and stock injectors i have a 16g set up. is this to big of injectors to run? EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - FIC 650cc Ball-Style Injectors : Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99 Turbo what size would you recomend me to use?

 

[LiquidX]

They can have it with a couple hours of reading. It really wasn't that hard to learn and was WAY easier IMO than an SAFC. Honestly if all you want is fuel and timing tuning with some basics then for the price difference between dsmlink and flashable ecu being around $600 (including new eprom ecu) I think someone could spend some time learning how to flash and not feel cheated.

Ah, you're overestimating a good bit of people on this site

No one seems to want to read about something on their own, especially if it's for a couple hours.

It may only be a couple hours of reading, but it's a whole new world so most like me for instance and those few hours turn into days if not weeks just trying to fully understand what is happening and how to to it properly without blowing up the car. That's why I like link since it has the logger with it, you can see real time what is going on and stop anything before it get's worse. I don't know how you fine tune with flashing unless you have another logging tool or dyno. Although, the reading I started to do, just baffled my mind on everthing dealing with it. I don't have much knowladge on tuning in general though so all those veterans out there it would be much easy to work it.

 

[the_mork]

I always tell people that and they never believe me. Apparently it is common knowledge that up to 700cc controllers are controllable with an safc and if you're willing to push it you can run even bigger but your setup might not be reliable. Why does everyone think that the maximum is always the best and that they are special and can push even the maximum with good results. I would expect that if someone wanted to do an safc experiment that a 1g car with a solid tune with 550s would be faster back to back than with a good tune and 650s. Normally I would suggest that there would be limitations to that claim based on the car's setup but in this case I kind of doubt that there are as long as the same physical parts are used both times.

 

[the_mork]

It may only be a couple hours of reading, but it's a whole new world so most like me for instance and those few hours turn into days if not weeks just trying to fully understand what is happening and how to to it properly without blowing up the car. That's why I like link since it has the logger with it, you can see real time what is going on and stop anything before it get's worse. I don't know how you fine tune with flashing unless you have another logging tool or dyno. Although, the reading I started to do, just baffled my mind on everthing dealing with it. I don't have much knowladge on tuning in general though so all those veterans out there it would be much easy to work it.

I started out not knowing anything about it and I would say that I am now fairly knowledgeable about flashing. It doesn't take that much to understand it and link has a learning curve too. Generally you use evoscan as a logger. It works pretty damn well and is very straightforward. Once you figure out how to use maptracer (its fairly obvious) then it is really just a matter of plug in numbers until you get it right. What trips people up is the technical jargon on top of not understanding tuning to start with. Take either one of those out of the picture and it would be easier or you can learn them both at the same time. It is very doable and all you need to do is ask the questions. I have now walked two people through evo8 ecu work over the phone and it really is something that you can get your head around if you can sit down and just get your questions answered but first you need to ask them.

 

[LiquidX]

I know you're right about that curve on both. Maybe it's because there is a large community with link already and a plethroa of info on it too. Flashing is new with the DSM community using the 98/99 ecu. To me personally, link just seems easier even if both are the same(ish). Everyone has their thing and who knows, maybe a year or two down the road, I'll have a whole new thought on flashing and see more positives related to it. To each their own though.

So you believe that 550's would be better than 650's?

 

[the_mork]

I do not have significant enough experience with an safc to say that for sure but I believe so. You are limited with an SAFC to controlling knock through reducing airflow. This is just wrong on so many levels and provides a (mostly) ridiculous misconception that boost directly causes knock. So the more fuel you have and the more you have to pull airflow the more timing you get the less ideal your AFR is and the more you have to proportionally lower boost compared to an optimum target.

On a 1g 650s are pretty bad. On a 2g they are a much more realistic injector. It has everything to do with timing and staying away from the "dump fuel to control knock" mentality. Honestly I think evo 560s are the a great choice. With a 2g FPR consider them closer to 580s and you'll have a nice middle ground.

 

[LiquidX]

So really what you're saying is anytime you trick the ecu by reading +/- airflow, everything else in the ecu is adjusted to those settings put in and it'll all be off from what it should. So a larger adjustment would give you a larger range of problems involving knock and timing. So I see what you are saying then with smaller the better when you trick the ecu instead of putting in real numbers.

So if this guy decides to just stick with safc/maft then just get the injector sizing needed for the max boost he'll run to help prevent or lessen any possible problems that may arise when tricking the ecu.

 

[the_mork]

Generally that would be my suggestion for any piggyback system. Get what you need and buy them used. That way when you sell them to go bigger later you're only out the cost of shipping.

 

[dsm-onster]

^^^Amen! You can get a used safc and used injectors that are OK with the safc (not too much timing advance) for the same cost that you sell them for. Used is used. Used in to you, used out to another.

However way you look at the learning curve of eprom flashing (hassle, learning experience, intemidation), it is worth the time after you get it, IMHO.

Yea, I'd hate to see the timing advance with 720s and safc or maft with a 1g ecu. Talk about being past MBT! Timing at peak flow is already at 20ish degrees. Push 720s to 65% IDC with a 1g ecu can put you close to the 30's around peak torque rpms . Not nice for pumpgas. You have to dial back in fuel to dial out the timing, then you're running SO rich that you could see 'rich knock' (I suspect fuel reliquifies and droplets of gas detonate in the CC). I even had some of that problem with my PTE 650s. But as soon as I had link (flashable ecu), everything was fine, PTEs worked FLAWLESSLY and global showed that they flowed just about as advertized. Since the ecu new which cells to use in the timing map finally, all my problems running the injectors to their potential went away. I got more power out of my setup simply because I could run the 650s to their limit (up the boost) without having the knock in the 5500rpm range.

650s doable, 720s and up really out of the picture. If you're looking to have that much fuel for later upgrades, you should be running some form of tuning that allows control/manipulation of the timing curve anyway. At that level, there's LOTs of power to be had from full control of timing and fuel.

 

[jrohner]

2G's have kindof a weak timing curve to begin with, and 1G's can adjust their aggressive timing back a bit with the CAS. I too would recommend he learn EPROM flashing instead. It's easier to tune than an AFC anyways in my opinion.

I think 550's are a pointless upgrade, since you're only going from 450 to 550 you don't gain much headroom. I liked my 680's with the AFC just fine, but I'm glad I dumped the AFC for EPROM, and now I'm somewhat glad I dumped the EPROM for an Evo 8 ECU.

 

[dsm-onster]

I agree that 550s are a small upgrade. a wrung out 14b can push 550s to their limit. But with a 1g car the advance is just so much vs a 2g map. So I agree in the case of a 2g it's probably much less of a headache with the 650s.

But with a 2g ecu you can easily swap to the reflashable 1998-1999 ecu if you have a 1997. And if you have a 1995, then you have a eprom most likely. 96 guys have more issues swapping to a flashable ecu or have to pay the dough for a 1995 eprom. To run a flashable 1998-99 ecu in your 1996 car just swap firing order for injectors/plugs and, then what, wire in a cas using the RRE site since 1998+ ecus have a cas? Not too hard. So I see why you ditched the safc for ecu tuning.

 

[the_mork]

I'm fairly happy with my evo 560s and I don't see them as a hindrance for my evo316g powered car. They were a huge upgrade for me and let me push my car much farther than I otherwise could. Ecu based boost control lets me push them even farther because I can tune for the maximum of my injectors which so far has been around 23-24psi up to around 5K RPM and then tapered down to 20-21psi near redline which is a huge upgrade from the 16-17psi I could manage without going over 95% IDC on my stock blacktops. Being FWD and not a terribly aggressive driver on the road I don't need a whole lot more there and I can't put all the power down that I have when I'm autoXing. I'd like to run bigger injectors when I have the money and I find a good deal on them so that I can run e85 if I find a station near me (just moved so I have no idea) and so that I can push my 16g closer to its limits just to have the satisfaction of knowing its there if I want it. I'll need some hardware for the head before I get that far though and really suspension/tires is higher up on my list of priorities and the whole damn car is lower on the priority list than my Jeep since we're coming into winter.

 

[1997_GSX_mar]

what all do i need to flash my ecu? can i just take it to a shop?

 

[the_mork]

To a shop that specializes in tuning yes, to any old shop around or even a Mitsubishi dealer, no. For most people this means at least a few hours drive and a few hundred dollars to get the car dyno-tuned. This is on top of the other stuff you'll need that is listed below although a shop will usually use its own wideband if you don't have one.

What you need to flash the car is a laptop (doesn't have to be fancy at all), a tactrix 2.0 cable, a flashing utility like ecuflash which is completely free, and a logger like Evoscan which costs about $25 (though free loggers exist). A wideband would be extremely helpful, they go for about $200-$250. After that you just need to read and experiment. I will say this again, it is not that hard to learn how to flash the car and it is incredibly valuable to know how to do it. Tuning at its basic level is incredibly easy with flashable ecus and the more advanced stuff just comes with practice and experience. Understanding what goes on is incredibly important too because you will be driving a modified car, sometimes things will change and sometimes things will break. A well modified car that is not extreme will be nearly as reliable as a stock car (mine has been) but it will require special diagnosis and work when there is an issue. Knowing about the tuning makes it so you don't have to drive down to wherever you got it tuned and get it fixed.