what is better, more timing or leaner mixture???

[Slippi84]

Are most of you guys just changing the base timing or do you have the link or something where your changing the timing only under heavy load, cause I plan on tunning with a safc2 and a wideband and that's it. My turbo is capable of makin plenty more hp then i want to run(stock rebuilt 6 bolt).

 

[andymoraitis]

if anybody has an idea of what i should do please help.
thanks

Tony,

What sticks out the most to me, and I could be wrong since I don't tune with an MAFT or SAFC, is that the fuel trims look way too high. If I'm not mistaken, these should read as close as possible to 100%. I'm going to PM a couple of sharp MAFT users to get in here and see what they think, but I'm wondering if you're not encountering rich knock. Again, I could be wrong, but it's something I'd like to rule out.

Just for kicks, what's your base fuel pressure with the vaccum line off? It should be around 37-39. Please have a look at that and let us know where it is. I'd also like for you to pull a couple of spark plugs and let us know what they look like. Carbon fouling would indicate that you're rich. On the other hand, if they're white across the surface it would read that you're on the lean side. Checking the base timing would also be a great idea to make sure that you're around 5 degrees as well as running a boost leak test. To sum up, let's check the following:

1. Fuel trims - shouldn't they be 100%?
2. Boost leak test
3. Read spark plugs for a rich or lean condition
4. Check base fuel pressure
5. Check base timing

Back soon,

Andy

 

[mavisky]

Thanks for the pm Andy.

Those fuel trims are all majorly high. The max adjustment on a 1g is 139.9% and you're damn near there on every single one.

I'd take up andy's suggestion on the 7es's. I went to the track last week on a set of 6's on pump gas and I just couldn't get it to run more than 21psi before it'd start popping randomly in the upper gears. I'd totally forgot about getting the 7's and just put a new set of 6's in the night before I went to the track. Totally wasted my money there on a bonehead move

You shouldn't be heatsoaking a front mount on 18psi from a 14b, i used to get away with 20 on the street running right on the ragged edge. It sounds like you may have a slight boost leak somewhere that's causing your stumbling and heat soaking. If the turbo is spinning fast enough to build 26psi but only getting 19 to the car it'll heatsoak the ic faster. Since you're running the maft you'll want to check leaks after it for tuning changes, and before it for heat soaking boost leaks.

After running the MAFT setup I've learned that it's far from perfect. I'm hoping Jeff can get me a chip to compensate for my 660's better than this friggin maft does. If I had the money I'd go with dsmlink in a heartbeat, it's just so much better on the tuning side.

EDIT: After going back through your logs I see that the knock really comes on at 3900rpm or so and that you're cutting the pulls short of even 6000rpm every time. Since the boost on a 14b should be hitting peak levels at about that time I'm wondering if you don't have a leak in your hose going to the fuel pressure regulator or something that's causing the fuel pressure to either not rise at all or not rise at a 1:1 ratio causing you to lean out more and more as you build more boost.

 

[Super4x4Duty]

Are most of you guys just changing the base timing or do you have the link or something where your changing the timing only under heavy load, cause I plan on tunning with a safc2 and a wideband and that's it. My turbo is capable of makin plenty more hp then i want to run(stock rebuilt 6 bolt).

You can change your base timing, DSMLink it, or have a chip burnt. The wideband is a good investment.

 

[andymoraitis]

Thanks for the pm Andy.

Great info on this one and thanks for jumping in Kyle.

Andy

 

[91-gsx]

What sticks out the most to me, and I could be wrong since I don't tune with an MAFT or SAFC, is that the fuel trims look way too high. If I'm not mistaken, these should read as close as possible to 100%. I'm going to PM a couple of sharp MAFT users to get in here and see what they think, but I'm wondering if you're not encountering rich knock. Again, I could be wrong, but it's something I'd like to rule out.

thanks for the help man i really need it, anyway,
1. the fuel trims stay like that no matter what i do to the maft, they take a while to change or something, i was driving my car and i would stop, without turning the car off and make another adjustment, but the fuel trims stayed the same anyway.
2. the ones i took out, 6's, looked whitish on top, so they semed sort of lean. but now i put in my 7's.
3. when i installed my afpr, i set the base fuel pressure at 36psi with the hose off, unless it has changed it is at stock level.
4. my timing should also be the same, i cannot remember when the last time i checked it was but i know it was around 2 months ago.
5. you are right about the boost leak test im going to do it today, i have a gut feeling i have one, i mean i kind of hope i do then i can fix my problem.

EDIT: After going back through your logs I see that the knock really comes on at 3900rpm or so and that you're cutting the pulls short of even 6000rpm every time. Since the boost on a 14b should be hitting peak levels at about that time I'm wondering if you don't have a leak in your hose going to the fuel pressure regulator or something that's causing the fuel pressure to either not rise at all or not rise at a 1:1 ratio causing you to lean out more and more as you build more boost.

you might be right because when i bought my fuel pressure regulator it came with a black grommet that went into the fuel rail, and then to the regulator. the company i had bought it from later sent out packages including a new grommet and warning people that some of the grommets that came with the original kits were not fuel safe and would basically melt due to the gasoline. so i might have a problem there, i have the grommet and that is an easy fix.

if you also notice on my pulls, i am getting more timing the more i richen it up, but the car feels like crap not, i have the boost set at 17-18 like i said, but the car only goes up to about 10or so. i do not know if i am right about this or not, but no matter how rich i am i should still be running the boost i set it at right?
thanks for the help guys and i hope to do some of this today and solve this damn problem.
stick with me

 

[andymoraitis]

Tony,

I REALLY think you're on to something with the fuel pressure regulator and Kyle's likely got a very valid point with the boost leak test. I think your trims will eventually adjust out as it simply takes time. Whitish on the 6's indicates a lean condition so I would definitely look at fuel supply and also follow up with the boost leak test. Please let us know what those 7's look like as well since that'll be an indication of something having changed.

There's really no reason, as Kyle mentioned, that you should have issues with a 14B at that boost level on your setup. I have a larger turbo, a leaner A/F, more timing, smaller injectors and a sidemount and I still don't get those types of knock numbers.

We're still hanging in there with you and between all of us, we'll get this sucker solved if it takes all week.

Andy

 

[91-gsx]

might have found the problem, read this thread on the boltons section. just found it on the homepage.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149221&page=1&pp=25

i have the same conditions that they speak of and i lean out a lot under boost as you can see by the knock counts as soon as boost kicks in. they say it is useless.... and anyway just read and give me your opinion.
thanks for trying to help

 

[mavisky]

Oh crap, I never even noticed you're in California running that 91 octane pisswater. Mine gets 94 octane only from sunoco.

 

[TSIfreek]

What are your compression numbers on your motor?? Check for boost leaks and put in a couple gallons of 110 and then log it. We will have a better understanding when the above is done.

 

[andymoraitis]

Tony,

While 91 sucks, there's no reason not continue your troubleshooting. If you find that the FPR is OK and that there are no boost leaks, then it would be allowable to consider that it's the octane in the fuel. You'll never really know what it was unless you take every step and rule out all of the possibilities.

If you want, you can take a look at Torco's website for a street-legal concentrate that will boost the octane level of your 91 to around 101-102 without harming the cat or the O2. More info can be found here:

http://www.torcoracefuels.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=29

I also have real world experience with this stuff and it worked VERY well for what it costs. The reason I went to race gas mixed in with pump is that I don't have all of the emissions controls that you do in Cali and I felt that if I'm going to spend money adding octane, that I might as well be adding some volume at the same time. The only down side to Torco's concentrate, aside of cost, is that it will coat the plugs brown and make them difficult to read, but with a logger, you'll know what's going on.

Don't give up! Check every option and then we can add octane and see what happens,

Andy

P.S. I don't think it's the boost level that's creating so much knock on 91, but the timing advance caused by running large injectors on the MAFT. Maybe the best option, aside of adding more octane to the mix to squelch the knock would be an EPROM ECU and Keydiver chip with something like 18-19 degrees of timing in it. It's always been boost over timing on pump gas and I think that's the direction you'll need to go in if you don't want to try higher octane fuel.

 

[91-gsx]

well first i need to do a boost leak test, change the fuel rail grommet, and take out the fuel pressure solenoid. i think that it might be the solenoid becuase they are having some of the same issues that i am having.

 

[91-gsx]

this is an update:
well basically i have bypassed my fuel pressure solenoid and i am sad to say it was not the cause of my problem with timing and knock, it feels as though it could have made a difference and the fact that it was so easy to bypass, that i had to do it for future purposes. next on my list was to do a boost leak test, so i went to home depot to get the parts that i needed to make one and i did. i had my mbc set at 17psi a few days earlier and the car was only giving me about 10psi. it did not even feel like 10 but that is what the boost gauge read. so back to the boost leak test, i started to pump air into the turbo and i would hear a hissing sound right after a few pumps. that meant this must have been a pretty big boost leak, so i had my dad pump the air in while i listened to the piping and couplers around my frontmount, and the second coupler is on my lower intercooler piping, was almost torn in half. so obviously this was causing some major air heating issues sense the mbc was set at 17 and the turbo was trying its hardest, aka hell of hot air, and could only push 10. so i fixed that right away and got a new one. came to test the rest of system and my hand pump failed on me because it was leaking too much. so that was all i could get done today, and I'm pretty sure that was a extreme boost leak the opening was a slit that measured 2". i did not get to replace the fuel rail grommet, but will get to it.
thanks for the support and help and i will keep posting here until i have my car tuned so that way every person can get the help that they need, if they fall under this category.

 

[Terrorize]

hi, my name is matan zaks, i own awd performance and tuning in palmdale ca. i own an awd dyno and tune various cars. all true tuners will tell you more timing.for example, when tuning a standalone, you always optimize timing. timing is the key to power-----a/fs have little influence(11.5-14.5)a lot of you are saying BS, but A/Fs determine longevity of the motor, economy(mpg), emissions. Yes peopledo gain more power by running leaner AFs but its because their parts are just running hotter and if run too hot may result in a blown motor(longevity issue)Yes AFCs and such piggy-backs gain people power, i myself have gotten a few cars well into the 400whp on pump with an afc, but its because the nature of the cars, they run extremly rich 10.2s and such so bringing a turbo car from a 10.2-10.5 to a 11.4-12.0, youll see great gains. but llike i said when tuning you get your fuel curve close to how you want it, then optimize timing(only done on a load capable dyno)---so long story short again timing is the key

 

[91-gsx]

thanks for the tips, did you get a chance at all to take a quick look at my logs. if so, what do you think about them or what would you do in my case. for now i am trying to get everything running right, so granted the advise you give me about these logs will change in a matter of days, but i am very interested in hearing from somebody with real world experience about tuning.
thanks for the advice

 

[99gst_racer]

91-gsx - You really should use an air compressor to test for boost leaks. A hand pump is just not capable of compressing enough air to fill the volume. There could be many small leak that a hand pump is not capable of showing.

If you dont have a compressor, try borrowing one from a friend.

PS - This is a very informational thread. I enjoyed reading it very much. Keep up the good work guys.

 

[DSM90AWD]

thanks for the tips, did you get a chance at all to take a quick look at my logs. if so, what do you think about them or what would you do in my case. for now i am trying to get everything running right, so granted the advise you give me about these logs will change in a matter of days, but i am very interested in hearing from somebody with real world experience about tuning.
thanks for the advice

Since you've just corrected a huge tuning issue (boost leak) your old logs are worthess to analyze at this point. Go ahead and pull the (-) battey terminal for 10-15mins to reset the ECU and your LTFTs. Drive around at varying speeds for 20-30mins and post a log with your LTFTs to see where your trims are at now. If ok post another with a typical pull showing timing, knock, O2s, AirflowHz, IPW and RPM

 

[92GSXBaltimore]

when my timing is high(23ish), and im knocking a little(1-4counts) with o2's around .85, it feels stronger then when im not knocking at all and my o2's are at .88

 

[andymoraitis]

when my timing is high(23ish), and im knocking a little(1-4counts) with o2's around .85, it feels stronger then when im not knocking at all and my o2's are at .88

That's because you've reached the "safe" edge of your tuning cycle. I can verify similar results based on track times.

Cheers!

Andy

 

[TSIfreek]

Yea I have also found that o2s .85-.86 seem to make the most power.

 

[92GSXBaltimore]

I run 14.5 psi daily on a big 16g, and i have 160k miles on an all original engine.(except for timing belts, if you can even count that)

p.s. i checked my compression about 15k miles ago and i had around 155psi except for one which was like 145, although i dont remeber the exact numbers...

 

[91-gsx]

just and update:
i have just reset my ecu because i have changed the base settings on my maft. the way i had it before with over 130 low medium and high trim was obviously too lean, so i changed my base injector size from 450cc to 430cc, which is the smallest setting you can have on the maft. this should get my trims under 100, it already feels a lot richer, not as fast.... then when they are safe because they are under 100, i will start to lean it out. also i bought a compressor that you can use for inflating your tires and other stuff, it is small and cheap $20. you hook it up to your cigarette lighter and press the on button when it is hooked up to my boost leak pcv pipe. feels like that boost leak i fixed made a big difference. i had the boost set at 17, i guess the hole was small, later on when i use to gun it, the boost would stay at 10, when i got a new coupler, it went up to 20. either way i was pushing the turbo past its efficiency range due to the fact that it would never meet my boost setting, but still maintain some boost.
stay tuned,
PS.. i bought a electric cutout, and i will be putting it right were the first bend on the exhaust is. so have to get it tuned by then to have some fun... i mean a lot of fun...

 

[sweet97]

You can go ahead and lean the mid and wot knobs on the maft now as long as you can log knock/timing. The trims should have reset to 100 and it will take a couple days of driving for the adjustment you made to show on your logger. Mark

 

[91-gsx]

hey guys,
it has been a few days sense the last post but i have fixed the coupler boost leak and reset my ecu and set my base injector size for 430cc. the trims look good and so does the timing. and at redline i would only get about 5 counts of knock, way down compared to 20-30 counts. the only thing is i can't help but think there is more to be done. the car does not even sound the same, it does not taper off as much as it use to, but it also does not seem as strong but still strong, maybe its in my head. the other thing that worries me is that i am running 17psi in 3rd gear, and the injector duty cycle as you can see on the right, when calculated, is about 81% at 6500 rpms. which is a lot for a 14b at 17psi. well here is the log, tell me what you think i should do.

timing  lowt       midt       hight      EGRT     o2V     throttle  rpm  knock  injector PW
38°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	296.3°C	0.02V	32.9%	3156	0	3.58ms
33°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	290.3°C	0.02V	40.4%	3188	0	4.86ms
28°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	287.3°C	0.90V	41.2%	3250	0	5.38ms
27°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	281.3°C	0.90V	41.2%	3344	0	6.40ms
25°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	278.3°C	0.92V	41.2%	3375	0	6.91ms
25°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	279.8°C	0.92V	41.2%	3469	0	6.40ms
25°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	264.8°C	0.90V	41.2%	3656	0	8.45ms
22°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	260.3°C	0.94V	40.0%	3719	0	9.22ms
20°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	263.3°C	0.94V	37.6%	3781	0	8.45ms
23°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	266.3°C	0.94V	37.3%	3938	0	7.68ms
23°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	264.8°C	0.94V	36.9%	4031	0	7.68ms
25°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	269.3°C	0.94V	36.1%	4125	0	6.91ms
25°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	245.3°C	0.94V	43.9%	4219	0	10.24ms
18°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	216.8°C	0.92V	100.0%	4344	11	14.08ms
12°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	186.8°C	0.94V	100.0%	4469	10	17.92ms
9°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	194.3°C	0.96V	100.0%	4688	10	16.13ms
11°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	194.3°C	0.96V	100.0%	4813	9	15.62ms
12°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	191.3°C	0.94V	100.0%	4969	9	15.62ms
12°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	185.3°C	0.94V	100.0%	5125	9	15.87ms
12°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	177.8°C	0.94V	100.0%	5281	8	16.13ms
12°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	180.8°C	0.94V	100.0%	5469	9	15.36ms
14°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	179.3°C	0.94V	100.0%	5531	8	15.36ms
14°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	176.3°C	0.94V	100.0%	5625	8	15.36ms
14°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	176.3°C	0.94V	100.0%	5719	8	15.10ms
14°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	174.8°C	0.94V	100.0%	5781	7	15.10ms
14°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	171.8°C	0.94V	100.0%	5844	8	15.36ms
14°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	170.3°C	0.94V	100.0%	5875	7	15.36ms
14°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	164.3°C	0.94V	100.0%	6094	7	15.36ms
14°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	164.3°C	0.94V	100.0%	6094	7	15.36ms
14°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	165.8°C	0.94V	100.0%	6188	6	15.10ms
16°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	165.8°C	0.94V	100.0%	6281	6	14.85ms
16°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	170.3°C	0.94V	100.0%	6313	6	14.34ms
16°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	167.3°C	0.94V	100.0%	6406	5	14.34ms
16°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	168.8°C	0.94V	100.0%	6469	5	14.08ms
16°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	165.8°C	0.94V	100.0%	6594	5	14.08ms
16°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	159.8°C	0.94V	100.0%	6781	5	14.34ms
16°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	314.3°C	0.70V	11.0%	6563	0	0.00ms
40°	103.7%	106.1%	100.6%	303.8°C	0.39V	11.0%	5719	0	1.28ms

thanks

 

[TSIfreek]

Well it looks to me like you are running way rich you want your 02 voltage at .85-.87 at wide open throttle through out the pull. What are your high fuel trims?? I have found 111 -112 worked best for me. Drive the car around for a wile when you reset the ECU it will run rich and leans itself out overtime. You may want to look into a SAFC to get it were you want it.